Oil and Gas Startups Podcast

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1:12 What is going on, Wildcats? Welcome back to another episode of the Willing Yes, Service Podcast. I'm here today with Chris Powers, Vice President of CCUS at none other than Chevron Chris,

1:24 welcome. Hey, thanks for having me today. I'm excited, man. We've had some really good engagement. We've got Kelly in the room as well. But it's really good engagement with Chevron over the

1:33 years. And so it's just fantastic to have you here. There's so many questions that I have really quickly. What is it that you do? Okay, so I'm Vice President of carbon capture utilization and

1:45 storage, as you said. So what does that mean? So I moved into the straw chemical engineer by background and we'll cover that,

1:51 But moved to Australia about 18 months ago now, and it was part of a new segment that we've stood up with in Chevron. So we've got our traditional business, we call it oil products and gas, OPG,

2:01 and a couple other segments we can run through later, but then we have Chevron new energies. And it was stood up in summer

2:09 of 2021 as a sort of an internal new coat focused on tackling the energy transition challenge as part of the broader Chevron Corporation So we've got three divisions, carbon capture utilization and

2:21 storage or CCUS. We'll use the acronym now that we find it, hydrogen and then offsets and emerging. And then we also have a big renewable fuels business that we sort of share with the traditional

2:32 business. So what is your actual role within that? What does your day to day look like? Are you just evaluating these technologies? Are you trying to figure out how it like plays into a bigger

2:42 strategy, is it commercialization? All of the above. Okay. All of the above, Jake So, you know, it's one of the things I love about this. best about this job. It's certainly the most intense,

2:53 but also in a lot of ways, the most fun job I've ever had within Chevron. I'm a Chevron life for joining the company straight out of, straight out of Rice. But we do so many different things, all

3:03 the way, you know, from certainly early project evaluations, both for our own assets, as well as for CCUS or

3:11 hydrogen delivery as a service to third parties. We also make investments. So, Chevron Energy's was the lead investor in two recent rounds. I'll call it growth capital phase, one with Swante,

3:25 another one with Carbon Clean. Those are both carbon capture tech companies. So, we do

3:34 a bit of that. Again, we've got projects from sort of the flicker in somebody's mind, all the way through stuff that's moving in towards pre-feed engineering. That's going to be a real project

3:40 where we're putting steel on the ground here in a few years That's super exciting. So

3:46 is it more commercial solutions today, or is it just like a time? of RD or is it kind of like a mixture of both? It's a mixture of both. So one of the biggest challenges within CCUS in general is

3:59 it's certainly, it's not free. It costs money to implement this technology, right? The proverbial no free lunch. So there are existing, I'll call it traditional technology or gen one technology

4:11 to do carbon capture, but it's not cheap. And the capture piece of it could be, your numbers vary depending on the project and the type It could be 70 to 80 of the cost of sort of a full CCUS value

4:24 chain project is in the capture tech. So you can do projects right now, either where you've got a highly concentrated CO2 stream already, for instance, off of a gas processing plant like you'd see

4:34 in the traditional business or a few other applications, but to really tackle the market more broadly, we're gonna have to drive the cost of capture down. So you've got sort of the bucket of

4:45 projects you can do in here and now, bucket of stuff on the margin, but then there's a huge tail that is really going to require technology advancement in order to monetize. And so that's why we're

4:55 doing some of the investments, both ourselves with the growth capital portion of Chevron energies, but then also partnering with our Tech Ventures organization for the really early stuff, which is

5:05 going to take years to bring forward. I have so many questions. There's so many things I'm going to dive into. Let's talk about your background. So you said Chevron Life, where you said you went

5:15 to Rice, are you from Houston? From Portanaches. I grew up in Portanaches over in Beaumont, Puerto Arthur in the Golden Triangle. Okay. Okay. So my,

5:23 been there for a couple of generations. My, my grandpa, my mom's dad, was a pipe that are actually a very blue collar background. He was in the union on the workman's committee. And, and I'm a

5:36 big believer in solid blue collar jobs and, and really helping people to grow generationally. So, you know, he.

5:45 He worked hard for many, many years hardest worker I ever knew and a big role model for me in my life. He scores passed away now, but he was pipe fitter for Gulf Oil and

5:56 then my, so,

6:02 so he had, I clearly had my mom here in, or in, in Port Arthur. My dad is a chemical engineer, same as me. He grew up born in Minnesota, grew up in Oregon and he had, he has an interesting

6:12 story He had a job, job offers actually from Texaco, from Chevron, from a couple other companies, but did not like the West Coast, specifically the Pacific Northwest. A lot of people love it.

6:21 I've been love it, but he didn't like the rain and the, and the sort of the gloom that pervades much of the year. So he, on a whim, at the time Texaco made him a job offer, you know, first,

6:32 first one in Puget Sound and then, then he said, don't, I don't want to be in the Pacific Northwest. And they said, well, how about we've got a place near Houston called Port Arthur and he said,

6:40 sign me up.

6:42 So, you know, sight unseen moved. I don't know how many people who would choose Port Arthur over. If you just sound, absolutely. But it worked out well unless it wouldn't be here. So, he moved

6:52 down a chemical engineer in the refining side of the business for Texco than Star Enterprise and then Motiva, ultimately now, also retired. And then, so I was born there.

7:06 Sort of the oil and gas business, primarily downstream and my bit of

7:14 the bloodline. It's in the sort of the family DNA, my - So you just knew early on. Yeah, like this is where I'm going. Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, and loved. It's the usual story

7:25 probably. Loved science, loved math. What am I gonna do? And said, Hey, chemical engineering sounds like the way to go. And so, did you do that at Rice or did you do that? Yeah, yeah, that

7:35 was mine. I only have an undergrad, did it at Rice And then I'd write straight to Chevron. Yeah, so did my wife and I are both. Both chemical engineers actually, both with the company, she's

7:44 retired now, but yeah, we were lucky enough to get an internship, it was pre-merger. I was in our sort of corporate engineering group, she was in our power and gasification group, and then sort

7:57 of did a couple of internships during the summers, and then got full-time offers right around the time of the Chevron-Textical merger, which made things interesting. They don't like telling the

8:07 story, but like the job I forgot redacted, 'cause it was for long parents, and then I got a new one, but fortunately, so started with the company and have been with it, been with Chevron,

8:16 Chevron-Textical, and now Chevron ever since. Okay, so what have you done, what have you done within Chevron kind of leading up, and anything in particular that kind of sticks out to you? Yeah,

8:26 I would say the epitome of Jack of All Trades, Master of None, so started in our corporate engineering group, was called the Energy Research and Technology Company at the time, and it's sort of

8:36 you could think about it as your corporate engineering and technology center, and worked on. primarily new technology development, but it was really around heavy oil processing back in the days,

8:47 you know, you go back, this is in the early 2000s. We, you know, the era of easy oils over and there's not gonna be any more light sweet crude anywhere. You know, clearly this is pretty,

8:56 pretty shale and type boom. And so we had a huge focus on heavy oil at the time. And so I got to work on a few early heavy oil developments, we had a big development in Venezuela called Hamaka,

9:07 and then really some sort of next generation heavy oil processing technology So it was really cool. Did that for a couple of years. And then to

9:16 be honest, I thought we've been

9:19 a Houston for four years at Rice, and then moved into a apartment, bought a house in Ireland, and thought, OK, set up, never going to leave. This is perfect. We'll be here for a long time.

9:30 And then we'll never forget it. I was at a friend's wedding in Fredericksburg, and got a phone call from our - we call them our PDRs But there's people help early

9:39 in your career, moving around. And Gary said, Hey, we've got a job opportunity for you in Adarau. Where's that? I mean, now it's the first question. That was the first question out of my mouth

9:50 that said Adarau. Where's that? And he said it's in Kazakhstan. We've got a great opportunity for you, Anne Heather, working on some really cool stuff in Tengis. So

10:02 we thought about it, told the family it was floored and said, Okay, we're gonna pack up and give this adventure a try So in May, June of 2005, got on a plane and moved to Kazakhstan. And that

10:16 was the start of the story. I don't know many people who lived in Kazakhstan. You might be the first. Yeah, it's

10:24 a wonderful country. Honestly, we so lived a resident in Adarau, probably a couple hundred thousand people at the time. So it's on the Caspian Sea, on the north part of the Caspian Sea. And then

10:35 we have a huge field. You've probably heard of it called Tengis in general is our LLC. partnership there, but this is just, I mean, it's one of the world's greatest oil fields, a super giant

10:47 field that was discovered, high H2S, such a real challenge to develop, and that's really, I think, what brought Chevron into it at the time. And so we've gone through a series of developments

10:60 over the last, you know, 25 plus years to really grow the field. One of our biggest assets in the portfolio, but just one of the things I love the best was just getting to really learn and stretch

11:11 yourself and the people are just wonderful. We've still got friends from Kazakhstan. In fact, one of them, it's just amazing how small world it is. One of them who was the G, one of the finance

11:25 senior leaders there at the time, we were close. And she says, hello to me after an internal town hall. I said, Sam's a cool, what are you doing here? And it's amazing how it's such a small

11:34 world. So loved So on your path, did you kind of seek out or just kind of become interested in, was it just new reforms of energy or was it like technology? Like, how did you land here? Was it

11:49 revolentold? Like that's how, in the Marine Corps, it was like, you get a new bullet and it's like, you're doing this and it's like, okay, I'm gonna do that. Yes. Or is it something you're

11:56 like, I'm so into this and let's do this. So I always love learning about new things. I mean, people joke at work and a little bit of a geek, on the geek side, right? In terms of, we love the

12:06 technology and all of it. And so, I think that's really how my career's progressed. I'll jump through to connect a few of the dots. So we're in Kazakhstan for a couple of years. Then we got an

12:14 opportunity to move to New Orleans, working at Gulf of Mexico business unit. And I never really worked upstream upstream at that point. So had an opportunity to do, we call it facilities

12:23 engineering, sort of surface engineering job. And then I got one of my mentors, who's still a great mentor to me to this day, gave me an opportunity to, hey, I think you've got ability to learn

12:35 the subsurface. put you in an asset manager job. So took over a bunch of shelf fields that were, I mean, this was in sort of 2010, 11 time frame. We were, you know, blowing and going. That's

12:47 one of our price was was moving, moving north, a couple of rigs, work over units. It was just really fun. You sort of running your own business there and that really wet the appetite. And then,

12:59 then, then got an opportunity to move to Thailand. And again, it's a theme here is lots of different types of roles. So we had, at the time, actually an EPC company that was a joint venture with

13:12 a local Thai affiliate of a Singaporean-based company. And this is great role. It's basically the COO of the company said, Hey, do you want to take this? And I said, Absolutely. It's a new

13:23 challenge and new opportunity to learn. So I went over and did that to live in Thailand, too. Yeah, lived in Bangkok. And we have fabrication yard in New York and,

13:33 learned so much there. It was really awesome. One of the key learnings for me that translates into this business a little bit is

13:41 you were on the other side of the table a little bit. So I'm still employed by Chevron, but second into this EPC company and I actually had to negotiate against Chevron so it's a little bit because

13:54 we're a supplier for platforms. So you learn a little bit about how is the other side thinking about this. So I think that's helped when I think about engaging with service companies and others You

14:04 just come and have it from a different perspective and it's good to have that lens. I think the average length at a job is probably like three years or something and everybody's kind of like swapping

14:13 around. And so when you come across somebody like yourself who's a lifer, I think a lot of people have this preconceived notion of like, oh, I'm doing the exact same thing day in, day out for

14:23 like a long period of time, it's going to be super boring. But you have to travel the world, you get to go to all these different roles, you get to learn all of these different things And so like

14:31 you have like, like you said doing this, this breath of knowledge. on so many different topics and aspects of this business. Like I think it's safe to say that's why leaders or organizations like

14:42 Chevron, I mean, just have so much knowledge about this business. Like you don't get to the top without doing clear time. But yeah, no, it's, I mean, that's, to me, one of the biggest things

14:54 that I look for in folks who, you know, wanna learn or have a mentoring relationship is this growth mindset. And it's, I mean, it's a little bit trite phrase, but you've gotta have that fire, I

15:04 think, to wanna learn, to wanna stretch yourself, to wanna grow, especially in this new piece of the business. But really, I say it goes in the traditional business as well. That's really, I

15:14 think, where you make yourself a better employer, a better leader, a better overall, just person is to really stretch yourself and understand, man, how can I absorb all the knowledge I can,

15:25 figure out how to make improvement? And then I also believe, you know, you sort of, it's this growth curve, right? you're going to make an impact and then then it's time for somebody else to

15:35 take over the reins of any given role, and then hopefully you get the right back, Phil, and they're going to think things that you haven't thought of and then really take the business to the next

15:44 level. I just can't think of another industry where you have that level of opportunity. Yeah, so a story I love to tell, and I'll leave out his last name. He's retired, but when I was a baby

15:53 engineer, I was probably a year in. This was one of our, we called him a unit manager at the time in the engineering and technology company, which is called Kurt There's lots of Kurtz, and he

16:05 said,

16:07 You guys are coming to a sunset industry, and this would have been 2003 or something. This is going to be a boring place. He was a chevron line for very nearing retirement, but in that doom and

16:20 gloom and talent, and I said, I got a different thesis. I think this is going to be incredibly exciting. Energy demand is going to continue to grow Billions more people are going to be on the

16:32 planet and it's going to take what we're doing today, plus so many different new things. And that's ultimately, I think, what got me excited about new energies. When we decided, hey, we're

16:41 gonna play a significant role in the energy transition, because this is stuff that's gonna be the next five decades from now. I can't think of a better time to be in this industry. I think it's so

16:52 exciting. And there's so many new technologies that are being developed, the barriers to entry have come down dramatically. We've seen just in the last 12 months, AI is really six months Wild has

17:04 just eaten the world completely. And so levels of productivity, every single one of us in the office have Chad GPT or some form of AI open on a monitor at all times and we're using it for such a

17:17 variety of tasks. Absolutely. And you think of just the implications for your level of productivity and how much you can get done. Remember whenever I first got access to just like GPT-4, I did

17:28 what I would equate to be six months worth

17:32 especially like really heavy lift, creative work, writing very long scripts and things that would turn into something else. And I just did it in record time and I'm like, oh my goodness. And then

17:44 there's like, think about like engineering heavy jobs or where there's tons of math or there's tons of things that you can focus on more of the high value things that AI can't do. Bingo. Absolutely,

17:56 I didn't mean to touch off but I had totally similar thesis on this I mean, so I was prepping for an interview recently and an internal interview I was doing and I'm working on all my questions. And

18:07 then I had a good friend who said, this is like perfect for chat GBT. Put in, help me think about an interview script for an interview with so-and-so and let's say who it was. And, you know, it

18:19 just spits out and I'm the one with Dan. I thought I did a pretty good job but these are some really interesting ideas on here and it's just amazing how quickly you can do it So to me, that's a huge

18:29 opportunity is to, for, I don't want to. I don't know, commoditized for tasks that can be automated, move forward and automated. And then that releases you to focus on

18:40 what you can distinctly add value to. I mean, a mentor, this is from totally different contexts that he used in, but focus on the things that only you can control or only you can do. And it's the

18:50 same kind of a concept with AI with chat GPT, that can release so much potential. So with AI, you've all these new startups popping up, you have all of the willing gas companies diversifying into

19:02 different energy sources. And so I'm curious to hear Chevron's take. I think I have a good idea as to what y'all's thesis is. For us, I don't like to use the word energy transition. I'll tell you

19:12 why. Because I feel like there's a negative connotation towards oil and gas. And I think that by the virtue of what we do, having people like yourself and other leaders and startup founders come in

19:26 here who are building the most cutting edge emerging technology I think we look at it. through a scientific lens of like what is actually possible and what is not. And so that is kind of like molded

19:38 our kind of worldview of like where oil and gas plays a part and where new energies kind of play a part. And so I like to adopt the whole thing of energy addition 'cause I think that you build upon

19:48 what we already have. And I think you move from being just an oil and gas company to being an oil gas, hydrogen. XUS, you name it, right? Company, right? And I see that playing out with a lot

20:01 of different groups. And so, yeah, now let's dive in all that. Yeah, for sure. So, if you go back and look at my LinkedIn posts over the last two years, the term that I've sort of evolved to

20:11 is, I use a couple of them interchangeably, but energy expansion or energy evolution. It's the same thesis because the reality is, and this gets into a little bit of our internal thesis at Chevron,

20:23 it's an all of the above solution. There's no, you know, it's interesting I speak at a ton of conferences and there is this minority that still says we're going to magically flip a switch and we're

20:33 going to get peak energy demand and we're going to be able to electrify everything through renewables. That's just not reality. The reality is the world is going to need traditional hydrocarbons and

20:42 more for decades and decades and decades to come. So I think how we think about it is, you need a robust traditional business, traditional oil, gas and products business. And guess what? That's

20:54 going to likely grow over time too. It's been, you know, historically 80 of the energy mix for decades and the energy demand is going to stack is going to continue to grow. So oil and gas is going

21:06 to grow over time. And there's going to be a place for green power and hydrogen and CCUS and renewable fuels. So we're, I'd say a big tent, all of the above company and believe that all those

21:19 businesses are going to be required. Some geographies, some, whether it's a policy jurisdiction or just a physical geography, we'll, we'll dictate which one is maybe, uh, more influential than

21:31 others in a particular region, but all of the above solutions, I think is how we need to think about it. And I wish, to some extent, lots of whether it's,

21:43 I'll call them stakeholders more broadly, would take a practical view on this. You're not gonna be able to transition away from, and look, I'm the guy running the CCUS business within Chevron.

21:54 The new energy's businesses are gonna play out of a huge role to play, but you're not gonna be able to magically flip a switch Yeah, it just doesn't simply work that way. Yeah, math doesn't work.

22:04 Yeah, and talking about energy demand, kind of just growing in perpetuity, it's, energy is the base layer to modern society. And I think we get so caught up in our glass castle here in the United

22:17 States, speaking from a place of privilege. Yes. That we have energy on tap, any given time, 247, we have access to the internet, We have all of these wonderful things in life. And I don't

22:30 know the exact stat, but I wanna say it's like somewhere like half of the world, like 4 billion people do not have 247 electricity, right? And so you think about over time, as we're bringing more

22:42 and more people out of poverty. Energy poverty. Yeah, and bringing them into modern society, which is still a, it's a crazy, crazy concept until you visited some of these places and you've seen

22:54 how in 2023 some people are still living It just shows you that there's still so many people that are gonna be consuming more and more and more energy and oiling gas is not going anywhere. And we do

23:07 need this all of the above approach to, you know, innovation is absolutely needed and you have some people from within the industry that say this is a waste of money, right? Let's look at shale.

23:21 How much capital did we torch to get to the point to where we're at today? There's a cost of innovation. Absolutely. they need one company out of 10 to provide the returns for the losses of the

23:33 other nine. Oh, the other nine, yep. Right, it's the power law. So there's still so much work to be done. And I think it's exciting, exciting times because I think people are really

23:43 prioritizing that. And I think that we found, I think in the messaging and everything, I think everybody's kind of taking more of a pragmatic, and we're not swinging too far, kind of one

23:52 direction or the other. And I think that that's exactly what's needed. Yeah, look, I love your comment. I use a slightly different stat, but I talk about the two billion additional people who

24:02 are gonna, you know, who aspire to have the same energy, standard of living, that we're privileged to have. And this is something I tell my kids, my three kids. I try to tell them every day is

24:12 we're very privileged and privileged to live where we are, privileged to have what we have. And you've got to take a global view. And I mean, one sort of personal story that sticks with me on this,

24:25 it was back when I lived in Kazakhstan. I'm a musician, I play French on, for what it's worth. And we had a little quintet, a couple of expats with a couple of the Kazakhs, a few of the Kazakhs,

24:38 I guess it's five. So

24:43 we do concerts and stuff, it's low key stuff. We're not a professional, right? But after one of them, we went to

24:53 the Glamira's, our name, house, and it was just, it was really good, perspective setting on, you know, this is a place where the water's outside, limited electricity, interruptible

25:08 electricity for sure. And just, it's like, okay, so I'm gonna go back to my expat housing, and it's a good reminder of how good we have it, and that all those folks want to aspire to a higher

25:22 standard of living And that's part of the critical role we play in one of the reasons I love the energy industry is. is we're delivering this super valuable input to everybody's lives to market

25:36 affordably, reliably, and ever clean. I wish there was like, you know, in some countries you have like mandatory military service that you have to do. I wish there was a program that was like

25:45 mandatory go, stop in five different countries who have it worse than we do. I did that, my parents signed me up for submissions trips as a kid when I was, I went on to 12 and 14 and went to like

25:58 the worst parts of Mexico, right? And at the time, I didn't fully understand why they were doing this. And now I look back and it was the best thing because at 12 years old, I came back with a

26:08 perspective that was like, I have a great, I have a great here. They didn't have electricity, they didn't have plumbing, they didn't even have a roof over their head, they didn't have consistent

26:19 food. And so it just like, I don't know, I think I was probably still an unawful teenager, but I think I did have a different perspective just the way the world actually works. and just how

26:29 privileged we are here. And I love your idea. It's however you implement it, and clearly that's not an approach that's gonna happen in the US, but I think it's incumbent on us to recognize how

26:41 blessed we are, and then recognize the critical role all of us in the industry play in making lives better for so many people. That's gonna make the world better as a whole. This podcast is brought

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27:49 So let's talk about CCUS specifically First off, do you wanna take a stab at defining what it is for those who are not familiar? Absolutely. So carbon capture, utilization and storage. So there's

28:02 a couple of elements within we use CCUS. We've got a U instead of just CCS, carbon capture and storage. So a couple of different ideas. I'll start with CCS. So fundamentally what that's about is

28:14 taking CO2 molecules that come out of fired equipment, power plants, generators, et cetera, capturing the CO2 molecules. dehydrating them, pressurizing them, and then bringing them to a well

28:30 and injecting it thousands of feet underground, safely and scurially for geologic time to lower with the goal of ultimately lowering the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. Okay, and then there's

28:42 two, I think, predominantly, I think there's two methods to do that. I think there's what, direct air capture, or DACS as some people call them. And then there's post-combustion? Yeah,

28:53 post-combustion and point source capture So happy to dive into both of those. So I'll start with point source capture. So I may, you know, this is my chemical engineering training. The easiest

29:06 element or molecule you're gonna capture is really sort of in any process is the one at the highest concentration. So point source capture, we think, if you sort of say I've got limited resources,

29:15 whether it's capital resources or technology or whatnot, and your objective is to lower the CO2 concentration, you're gonna wanna go after the highest concentration, largest streams first, and

29:25 that's where, I think, point source capture makes a lot of sense. So what you're gonna do there is target the large CO2 streams that could come off, it could come off as, you know, gas

29:36 processing plants, power generation, cement, steel, et cetera, the large point source emitters. And then you're gonna install various types of capture technology to grab those streams, which

29:48 might be between, you know, some CO2 is already concentrated on a gas processing plant. You're already, in some cases, gonna have a nearly 100 stream all the way down to natural gas, power

30:00 generation might be at three to 4 CO2 in the exhaust gas stream. So you got a wide range of concentrations you're dealing with, but they're all far higher than, say, 300 to 400 ppm, which is the

30:13 kind of numbers you're talking about with DAC or direct air capture. So our thesis is the first significant projects that are gonna be the most efficient. effective to do are going to be point

30:25 source capture projects. And then the real magic trifecta is when you have the emissions, then you've got the geology, and then you've got, I'll say, the enabling policy framework, whether

30:38 that's a regulatory policy or a fiscal policy to enable it all to all harmonize and come together and make a project go forward. And we can dive into those elements if you'd like as well. So we

30:48 talked about the CCS before we move on What's the utilization? How do you utilize CO2? Yeah. So utilization, people use the U in different ways. In Chevron, when we talk about the utilization,

31:01 we're really talking about turning the captured CO2 into some sort of ideally high value product, but at least a product that has a market. So I call it jokingly sort of CO2 to stuff. So

31:17 there's technologies to sort of or mineralize it to convert it into aggregates. input to cement or concrete. You can turn CO2 into intermediates through electrochemical processing. Then there's CO2

31:30 to finish products like CO2 to jet or CO2 to similar finished products. The unfortunate reality is that CO2 is a super low-energy molecule. It became a low-energy molecule when the hydrocarbon was

31:43 combusted and released all this wonderful energy which powers the world we live in that the resultant molecule CO2 is low energy. So to do really most of the CO2 conversion process is you've got to

31:54 input a lot of energy, ideally it's going to be green power because you don't want to be contributing to the carbon footprint. So you're going to be putting a lot of power to this low-energy

32:03 molecule mixed with some other elements or molecules and ultimately converting it into a product that can be reused. So a bit of circularity to it Yeah. The you, broadly speaking, I'll say the you

32:13 as earlier days. So a lot of other technology companies out there that, I mean, we certainly are clearly obviously can't canvassing the landscape through a technology ventures organization and

32:24 through Chevron new energies to look for the right ones that have the potential to grow and scale and be successful. But broadly speaking, the you as earlier days, we're going to have to do a lot

32:34 of the work through carbon capture and storage. We had a company, and I hope I don't butcher this, a company called Earth In, and they presented it Fuse last year. It was the first time that I'd

32:48 seen, how do you have all this C2? How can you turn to a feed stock to be something that's going to be valuable? They were taking the CO2, and then I think they were putting it into what I believe

32:58 is called a super critical phase. Then they were able to do something in this closed loop system to essentially act as a long duration battery storage. Super, super interesting. That's one of the

33:10 companies that I'm really paying attention to because they pulled it off. That's a game changer. Absolutely. An absolute game changer. Then you take that and you're like, Now you have you have

33:19 infinite amounts of C2 CO2 that we can capture you feeds dark. It's all closed loop. The long duration battery storage changes the game on the renewables. Right. And so it makes those truly

33:31 sustainable. I mean, you want to, you know, turn those on and off. So that's a super interesting. So okay, so on. If so, if you're injecting the CO2 into a well, is this a specially drilled

33:45 well? Is this an existing just well bore? Want me to that? Yeah, so this is this is the whole thesis of why Chevron picked CCUS as one of the focus areas for our for our new energies business.

33:57 CCUS leverages sort of three broadly speaking, there's more skill sets that we have as a company historically over the last 140 years. You think about the capture side, that's process engineering

34:07 and operations, oil field and refining operations, that's what that looks like. Transportation, we do pipelines, we've done pipelines, and then injection and storage wells and reservoir

34:17 management. That's our bread and butter, right? So So you'll do, if you walk through a project, you'll do the capture, the dehydration compression, then you get to a site. Okay, well, what's

34:27 the site? That's really the question you're asking. So two broad buckets of locations where you can inject the CO2 in terms of a geologic characteristic, and then we can talk about geographic later.

34:38 So from a geologic characteristic, you're either looking for depleted oil and gas fields, ideally ones with few well penetrations, the fewer well penetrations the best, because it's fewer things

34:48 to manage, for your risk to mitigate, or large low-dip saline aquifers. So that's sort of the other broad category. So oil and gas reservoir may be maybe more intuitive. You've depleted a

35:03 formation that clearly has a seal and integrity, and you're reversing flow generally. There's a lot of ideas around, hey, can we reuse infrastructure? Can we reuse pipelines? Can we reuse wells?

35:18 you know, it's complicated, I think is the answer. And that all that has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis because clearly one of our top focuses is you've got to do all this with the utmost

35:27 operational excellence because when you're putting the CO2 on the ground, you need to be assured that it's going to stay there for geologic time. So outside of it, like, obviously escaping and

35:37 like all that being for not, is there any other risk associated with injecting that? Yeah, so we've been handling as an industry, CO2 for, you know, moving towards a century now, right? And

35:50 specifically with then Chevron, we first pioneered CO2 floods. We haven't talked about EOR and we should touch on that in a little bit. It's an area where we have a little bit less focus, but we

35:60 pioneered CO2 EOR in West Texas, you know, decades ago, 19, you think about the 1960s kind of time frame. So I think you guys are actually one of the largest water floods on

36:12 West Texas, right? We've historically we've rotated a lot of the fields out of our portfolio and the I mean, recently, but had huge water floods and - And steam floods in California, too. Steam

36:21 floods in California. It's, we're, we're, have historically been one of the largest steam flood operators. I wouldn't want to quote. Yeah. So what's the difference between this and like a CO2?

36:30 Steam flood? Yeah. So on a CO2 flood, you're injecting the CO2 into an existing producing oil and gas reservoir with the idea that you're going to change the miscibility or somehow otherwise sweep

36:41 the fluids. You are. And produce more oil and gas than you went on a baseline. A primary production approach. And then some CO2 would stay in the reservoir, but a lot of it, you can think about

36:53 it like a big recycle loop. So the complete flip here is when we're putting the CO2 in either the depleted oil and gas field or in the saline aquifer, we don't want to ever see it again. So you're

37:03 putting it in, you're looking for formations where you have high integrity in the seal, ideally multiple seal layers as you work, from the surface down And then you're going to do that it's sort of

37:15 like - you know, reservoir engineering in reverse, you're going to build a reservoir model based on the characteristics, your delineation wells and your fluid properties, and then you're going to

37:24 model. And this is, again, it's the really cool stuff. You're going to model where you're going to inject and where the CO2 plume is going to move over time. And then as you start injecting, you

37:35 have monitoring wells. It's just like history matching again on production, sort of in reverse. And you're going to monitor is the CO2 plume behaving as you would have expected. And then you, you

37:46 know, you tweak injection. You might tweak how much is going here versus another well, just like you would in any sort of a traditional production operation. But you're doing it in reverse. You

37:55 model that, and then ultimately, any given aquifer or reservoir will have some volume that's your target. You're doing the monitoring and verification over time. And then you'll get to the end of

38:07 life on a particular asset. You'll turn off the injection, and then the CO2 will stay there. And then over, there's one of the interesting things is how do you manage the long term? Ultimately,

38:20 the CO2 will, it'll be modeled and we'll get to this end state. And then basically that particular asset is done. And you've put, these are typically millions of tons of random over maybe 20 or 30

38:34 years. So you've put a significant amount of CO2, taking it out of the atmosphere and putting it in the ground for permanent sequestration. It's really cool stuff So let's, let's do just a second

38:46 just to talk about EOR. Yep. I've said for years, you know, obviously we're not, we're not discovering new Permian basis, right? And so the question becomes on the oil and gas side, what is

38:57 kind of the next frontier? And so, especially me seeing a lot of technology, I was like, I think there's two things. I think EOR is one of them and I think the cost of offshore continues to kind

39:04 of come down. And then recently, there was a whole article it was like Exxon and Marathon and a couple other guys. Have all this new data on refracks and they're showing that the recovery rate is

39:15 like double Possibly what it was the first time and so I think there's like significant advances I'm curious if that's like EOR as a whole continues to be a focus for for Chevron as like Another

39:27 frontier. Absolutely. I mean one one of the salt. I'll jump back into the traditional business

39:35 Where you found oil is is this is a corollary what you're saying where you found oil is one of the best places to find more oil Right? Anything you can do to squeeze more to squeeze more oil out of

39:45 the existing rock or existing asset is is is generally going to be a Cost-effective and efficient way to do things so a story I like to tell actually told us in a town hall last week in the offices

39:56 you think to go back to your question on Heavy oil steam flood formations, you know if you go back and look at like our current Riverfield as an example in the San Joaquin Valley in California You

40:05 know you see the production over time It's all primary production and then as we mastered sort of cyclic injection and then really steam flooding, you just saw this huge spike in the amount of oil

40:16 that you recovered. And then you think about that area under the production curve over time, just unlocked so much more production from these assets. You're leaving way less oil in the ground and

40:27 bringing more energy to

40:30 the world, critically needed energy to the world. So things you can do to improve recovery in the existing assets, absolutely as a key focus area for us. And so, you know, steam floods a good

40:42 historical example, I think in the channel and type formations, this is clearly a key focus area for us and many others when you think about everything from how we're doing fracking, you go to

40:53 zipper fracks, you go to refracks, flack-fluid chemistry optimization. I think there's gonna continue to be in many, many advancements in that space that's gonna help ultimately release more

41:04 production from the assets that we have in the ground All right, so going back to CCUS. How does it make money? Yeah, so very clearly, CCUS is a policy-enabled market right now. Okay. And I

41:17 think that broadly goes for the new energies, the new energies technologies or asset class in general. And I think that's okay. I don't think that's too dissimilar from how many of the technologies

41:29 that are and the assets that are in the market now like solar, wind, so many of them started out with policy-enabled men to help kickstart

41:40 those technologies and turn them into businesses that are viable. So, zeroing in on CCUS specifically, the IRA was a game changer in terms of helping to create that right little bit of incentive to

41:54 help get some of the foundational projects moving forward. So right now, you've probably heard 45Q is the incentive that is in place to help get these projects moving from a lot like a revenue

42:07 stream standpoint. Broadly, our hope is that after the policy enablement, these are eventually going to involve into marketplaces. And it looks tied to one of our thesis within Chevron, as we

42:19 believe, that a price on carbon makes a lot of sense. A well-designed policy that creates a fair and equitable playing field that doesn't allow the government to pick winners and losers. We broadly

42:30 want to marketplace where the most efficient and effective technologies will compete head-to-head and those ones that are the most efficient and effective will move to the fore and will be the leaders

42:41 in the space. So right now, policy enablement is critical and we believe in the future these will grow into more sustainable markets. So in the current way it's set up, it thinks to the inflation

42:53 reduction act, is it a you capture X amount of carbon and re-inject that and then is it carbon credits or is it Tax credits or how does that work? Yeah, so the mechanism It varies a little bit

43:08 between, so it depends on what role you play in the value chain. So if you're in a

43:14 mitter, you've got to decide, am I going to install a capture equipment myself and then take the 45Q credit myself and then sell the CO2 stream to call it like a TNS or transport and sequestration

43:27 provider or do I want somebody to come in and provide me a full service solution, a full value chain solution, or can I do it myself? And it's interesting, we've got a big project called Bayou

43:37 Bend, which is just really between here and Beaumont Port Arthur, that's gonna be, we think one of the largest combined offshore, onshore CCS

43:48 projects in the world. It's really servicing the huge industrial corridor we have between Houston and Beaumont Port Arthur Orange. So when we, it's a bit unique for us because we don't really have

44:01 large assets in this area on a downstream side. Of course, we're huge producer in the Permian, the Houston BOMO per Arthur area, we don't have a ton of downstream assets. So for us, this is

44:12 around generating a CCS as a service, engaging the emitters and then working with them to figure out what is the solution space look like. And so just to double click on your question, you could

44:26 have an arrangement where we could come in and offer a full service solution. We can install capture equipment and handle the capture of the transport and the sequestration More commonly, the

44:36 emitter will want to install their own capture equipment within their fence line and then there'll be a custody transfer at the fence line. And then we'd be handling the transportation and

44:45 sequestration piece. Do you do that as a service or a joint venture? There's so much commercial work to be done in this space. It's really fascinating, Jake.

44:54 The commercial constructs are myriad, right? And there's a way you can actually exchange the 45Q credit, that's an approach or if the emitter wants to keep the 45Q credit, it can be a flat, beep,

45:06 beep, or ton.

45:09 that's used as the transfer mechanism. And everybody is doing it and thinking about it a little differently. And that's one of the things from my level learning, the commercial mindset is you think

45:19 about the midstream business, which is maybe a good analogy. The models are pretty consistent, but they've developed over decades and decades and decades. We're here in the infancy. It's really

45:30 sort of nascent times. And so how is everybody thinking about it? How are folks thinking about it from a, is it a ship repair, is it a take or pay? Who's on either end of this? And what's the

45:43 criticality of the interruptibility of delivery of the CO2 versus

45:48 redundancy on the injection side? So all this were sort of building it as we go. And one of the things I love is I think in general, everybody on both sides of this is taking a practical view of

46:02 pragmatist approach knowing that, hey, we're not gonna be able to solve, every commercial eventuality here on day one, but let's get the bones in place so that we can start moving these projects

46:12 forward with the recognition that there are gonna be ends that we're gonna have to tie up over time. So with Biobin specifically, is that something where you're capturing all of the CO2 locally or

46:23 is it, I know you said half on shore, we're gonna half offshore. Are you piping in, how do CO2 get to Biobin? Yeah, great question. So just to set the picture geographically for folks, so the

46:34 offshore component is a offshore sequestration lease that our partners and Chevron were awarded from the Texas GLO general land office. It's directly south of Jefferson County. So south of Port

46:48 Arthur, Sabine Pass, just offshore. Then we have an onshore portion that's between sort of East Chambers, West Jefferson County, big contiguous block that's in sort of the prairie, prairie land

47:00 in that area And sort of our hypothesis is. emitters want redundancy, they want optionality, they want to know that, hey, if there's an issue and you discover maybe there's a

47:13 fault that you didn't predict on the initial modeling, maybe there's

47:18 actually different policy frameworks on onshore injection versus offshore injection. So establishing optionality

47:26 and then going to the market with that, you've got the, I'll say the brand recognition people know that Chevron can handle our subsurface, we're partnering with two great companies, Talos and

47:36 CarbonVirt which bring interesting different perspective Talos, a much smaller oil and gas operator, Tim Duncan's their CEO, great, great partner. And he thinks about things from a different

47:45 perspective than CarbonVirt, a CCUS

47:49 startup, fundamentally, private equity based startup. And, you know, we all bring different skill sets. And then I think collectively, partnership is a key thing for me. Collectively that

48:00 partnership, enables us to compete in the market. So what do we do? We go and talk to the emitters. So you think about the classes of emitters, you can have LNG, I'm not gonna name specific

48:12 companies, but you've got LNG producers, you've got industrial gas companies, you've got pet chem companies, you've got refineries on both the Houston ship channel area and the BOMO and MacArthur

48:26 or Orange area. And you're in early days, you're flipping term sheets, you're trying to figure out, okay, how is this gonna be a win-win for both of us? And then ultimately you wanna get enough

48:35 of those foundation customers that you say, Hey, this is gonna go forward. We're very bullish about this project. I mean, Southeast Texas is, I think,

48:49 the best. If not the best, one of the best places in the entire world to do CCS, because you've got the right mix of emissions, you've got some of the best geology in the world and you've got,

49:01 I'll say, oh. broadly speaking, a group of stakeholders from the governmental side to the community side that wants to see energy continue to be a critical part of the economy and the community for

49:16 decades to come. So this is just building on the foundation of the traditional business. We've got the traditional business and now we've got new energy's growth that'll provide jobs for my kids and

49:27 many others for the next decades to come. So super, super exciting times. So I want to dive into the rest of new energies. But first, I do have a question. I've heard things, I'm not out there

49:40 exchanging or trading carbon credits. So I've kind of heard some grumblings from certain people that it's a very analog PDFs are just kind of being sent by email. Is that the case? Or is there like

49:53 a fluid marketplace of like, I don't know, I would imagine that you would almost like serialize these kinds of. credits or they would have some kind of like watermark or like fingerprint and there

50:05 would be some sort of immutable ledger, similar to like, you know, some blockchain. What is the state of that? Yeah. So you're talking about, I guess, really that broadly speaking, the

50:15 durability and the verifiability of the

50:19 credits, right? And clearly there are different, I think what you're seeing is there are emerging different buckets of credits that would be used in the offsets market. Our approach is to make

50:29 sure that we, I mean, we talked about this actually last week, is one of our criterias we're looking at, are we working with credible partners, good bonafides that we know are doing good projects,

50:40 and these are reputable, verifiable credits over the life cycle of the project. And again, we could spend a whole hour on this, but I've got a colleague, Barbara, maybe you can talk to her

50:50 sometime. She runs that piece of the business. But you've got nature-based solutions you could have, our forestation, you can have.

50:57 You can have. trees in Louisiana. You can have mangroves in Southeast Asia. I'll say a technological carbon removal credit is like from a DAC, which we didn't really get too much into. There's so

51:11 much in this space, broadly speaking, I think getting the right framework and price in place, the regulatory regime to ensure that what you know that you're exchanging as a quality credit is

51:22 something that is important and will continue to grow in importance over time Yeah, I was just curious with the say of that. So, new energy, so obviously we talked about carbon capture,

51:31 utilization is a question, it's a mouthful, I know you got hydrogen, what else are you guys working on over there? Yeah, so our four big ones again, CCUS, which we've talked about, hydrogen,

51:41 blue and green, I'll touch on that in a minute. Offsets and emerging, so offsets clearly has a linkage to the carbon capture space or our nature-based solutions, emerging, which for us means

51:51 things like geothermal. It could be nuclear. A lot of this is earlier. earlier days, hence the name emerging. And then we have a big, renewable fuels business. So if you want, I can touch on -

52:03 Let's dive in all of them. Touch on each - Let's start with hydrogen. Hydrogen maybe has the closest linkage, especially with blue to the CCS business. So two broad buckets, we're color agnostic.

52:14 Generally speaking - Could you define blue really quickly? Yeah, so blue hydrogen, it would be hydrogen and you'd produce in conjunction with carbon capture and storage, right? Okay. So you

52:21 think about a natural gas feed stock, ideally a low carbon intensity, quality feed stock out of the Permian as an example. And that's something where we have a clear value chain linkage. So you

52:32 bring it in a low carbon intensity, natural gas, you're gonna reform it through either a steam methane reformer or an auto thermal reformer, you produce hydrogen and then you produce a CO2 stream.

52:44 So for blue hydrogen concept, you're gonna capture that CO2 stream as part of the process and then you'll do the same compression dehydration, et cetera, steps, and then you're gonna inject it

52:54 down hole at the, generally at the site or. approximate to the site of the hydrogen production. So then you end up with a blue hydrogen stream that can be sold to the market or that can be

53:04 converted to derivatives like ammonia and then used in markets domestically or abroad. So that's blue. Green is what people typically think about as the renewable based or electrolytic hydrogen

53:17 production. So you'll take a renewable power source, solar wind, whatever. You go through an electric, take water through an electrolyzer and you basically decompose the molecule into hydrogen,

53:28 molecular hydrogen, molecular oxygen, and then you've got that hydrogen stream that you can again, either sell directly into the market, liquefy, convert to a million other things and deliver to

53:40 the market. So work color agnostic, sort of, again, try to take an engineering and a

53:46 sort of a cost business engineering technological lens to this. In some areas, it's going to make more sense to do green, maybe where you have abundant prolific low-cost renewables. you've got

53:56 good sources of water. In other areas, it's going to make more sense to do blue, where you've got high quality, low carbon intensity, natural gas, and you've got good geology to do sequestration,

54:08 and you've got the right skill sets. I think the US. Gulf Coast are going to see a lot of blue for sure the

54:16 next decade, couple of decades, because of the great abundance we've been blessed with in the Permian and other places And hydrogen, really the promise of hydrogen, if I remember my stats

54:26 correctly, hydrogen's 26 times more energy dense than natural gas. And with the ways that you're describing about manufacturing that, there's practically no emissions. So that's the problem. Yeah,

54:39 you've captured the CO2 in the production process. So hydrogen would be combusted to water. That's really water vapor. I'm a huge car guy. And so I've been following closely what is being said by

54:50 auto manufacturers Obviously, we're going through this EV boom.

54:55 However, if you go to four dealerships currently, there are significant amounts of four lightings that are not sailing. And I think there's a couple of factors that are kind of at play here. I

55:05 think for one of the manufacturing process, the significant amount of these minerals are in certain places where we have a lot of tension, geopolitically. And I think that poses a lot of risk. I

55:16 think there's also some ethical things with some of the things, not just for EVs, for cell phones, for anything that have batteries, particularly with a cobalt, right? And all the stuff that's

55:24 kind of coming out there. What you've seen a significant amount of, let's use Hyundai, for example. Hyundai has come out. I think BMW also said the same thing. And it said that the future of all

55:35 our fleets are going to be internal combustion engines leveraging hydrogen more so than electrical vehicles, right? Went to OTC, Saudi Aramco had a prototype internal combustion engine running on

55:49 hydrogen. They are at their booth. And so I'm really, really closely paying attention to that. Honey is actually releasing a hydrogen powered vehicle, I think, either next year or the year after.

55:60 That was a prototype concept that I think is gonna be completely, completely game changing and showing what's possible, right? I think a lot of people naturally kind of get scared of hydrogen due

56:09 to things like the Hindenburg a hundred years ago, you know? Obviously, I think technologies change a little bit since then, but I'm paying attention to the hydrogen space very, very closely.

56:18 Have you heard of gold hydrogen? Yes, with Cinvita, with those guys, amazing stuff they're working on. Yeah, so hydrogen, we could spend hours talking about hydrogen as well. And it really

56:30 intersects. And when you talk about the vehicle fleet and it intersects with so many things. So I'll try to unpack a few of them and feel free to double click and interrupt on any of these. So look,

56:39 I mean, I think broadly there's, you can think about light duty vehicles and then you can think about heavy duty vehicles. I think, you know, the jury is still out, clearly, you know, electric

56:48 vehicles have made big inroads on the passenger car market. And then you've got the heavy duty fleet, which we'll have its own evolution over time. Again, I like to keep options open and see how

57:01 the market develops. I do think,

57:06 and this ties to our renewable fuels business, liquid hydrocarbons or gaseous hydrocarbons are gonna be a

57:13 big part of the mix. This goes to your energy addition or energy expansion. So to just imagine it's gonna match we all despair is probably not a good POV, right? So

57:23 I think hydrogen, generating those demand sinks is gonna be critical to help enable the production side of the business to scale here in the US and elsewhere. So it could be light or heavy duty

57:34 vehicles. Hydrogen to a derivative and used in the European market or in the Asian markets. For instance, hydrogen to ammonia or it could be hydrogen through a.

57:51 which are hydrogen carrier, it's a hydrogen carrier molecule and then delivering hydrogen to be evolved back down into a gaseous state in the end market is going to play a role. So lots, lots of

58:03 innovation I think still to happen in hydrogen and I think it has a potential to play a really big role in many different markets, Asia, Europe, US, over time. So hydrogen into ammonia,

58:15 obviously ammonia being used primarily for fertilizer that's essentially net zero ammonia and there's a significant amount of emissions that come from things like farming. And so the, you guys call

58:27 it synthetic fuels or biofuels? Yeah. A lot of renewable fuels. Renewable fuels. Wow. Major implications there. Okay. So let's talk about, okay. So hydrogen, man. Super interesting. What

58:38 are you guys doing, anything in nuclear? Nuclear is earlier days. Nuclear sits more in our technology ventures organization So you know, there have been a ton of advancements. I love this space

58:49 and, you know, I'm a. Again, advocate of an inclusive all-the-above approach, so they call small modular reactors, which uses more of the traditional fission technology, but that's, I think,

59:00 going to grow and scale over time. I mean, of course, the

59:05 real breakthrough would be if somebody can really make fusion happen and really make progress there. And look,

59:12 Chevron,

59:14 again, evaluate this landscape and look for companies that have the potential make significant breakthroughs as well. A lot of this is longer dated. So that's why, again, the pragmatist in me

59:24 says, traditional hydrocarbons, big role to play in here and now and for the future. The new energies that we're focused on, CCUS and hydrogen, have a role to play in now and into the mid-term

59:36 future. And then you've got further evolution that's going to happen in the long run. That could be things like nuclear or other things. And look, I just think that's part of the energy story If

59:44 you go back to. You know, the dawn of time when the caveman first rub sticks together and we made fire, maybe lightning struck and then, Oh, this is convenient. We can roast some meat. And then

59:55 you go to

59:57 whale oil, to coal, to oil, to natural gas. It's always been an evolution. And it's always been an expansion. And I think that's going to continue for many, many years to come. Evolver die.

1:00:09 Absolutely. Any other technologies you're excited about? Yeah. I mean, the renewable fuels is one we didn't touch a lot on. But this is one where I think you can get the double benefit of it's a

1:00:22 renewable, sustainable production. This could be, you know, there's, and there's a broad bucket. Soybean oil to, to, to, to a product could be distillers corn oil to a product could be

1:00:33 renewable, natural gas. There's a, there's a whole broad bucket there. But this is one that's got the double benefit of being environmentally friendly and it can go be processed or ultimately used.

1:00:45 in the existing

1:00:48 fleet, if you will, right? So, you know, things are a little bit different. As you think about converting some of these renewable-based feedstocks through refineries into finished products, the

1:00:58 chemistry is a little bit different, you have to tweak things within the refineries, but it's stuff we know how to do. And then you end up with a product that's low carbon intensity, but that can

1:01:06 be blended into the existing vehicle or transportation fleet. So I think that's gonna play a huge role Of course, we bought our REG Renewable Energy Group. And it's now branded Chevron REG based in

1:01:20 Iowa. And that's gonna be a growing part of our portfolio over the years to come. So lots and that's based. And again, the theme here I think is optionality, finding a way to let the most

1:01:31 efficient and effective technologies win in their respective markets. And then recognizing that this is not a substitution process, this is an addition process or an expansion to use both

1:01:46 of our words to meet the demand of the world. I mean, one of the things, you know, to go back to sort of why I got into this business, it's so fascinating. It's a mix of, you've got technology,

1:01:59 you've got geopolitics in many areas. You've got a critical need for society, for the world, and then you've got the business aspect. You have to be able to ultimately make this business The

1:02:11 energy industry allows you to blend those three or four really special ingredients and have a really fulsome and fun career and work in so many different areas. If you've sort of got an open mind, a

1:02:22 growth mindset, you can do so many wonderful things in this business. I'm so thrilled to play just a small part of it. It's exciting times. Chris, this has been fantastic. I've learned a time.

1:02:35 You know, I think when you're looking at where does a lot of the innovation come, I think there will be a few players who are totally new to the space, you have some brilliant people who do some

1:02:43 stuff, but I think a lot of the innovation is going to come from the incumbents, and I think that we have the people and the process, the history of powering the world, and we have some of the

1:02:54 smartest people in the world working on things like this and so it's super exciting to see what you guys are working on the new energy side Thanks again for making this happen. Thanks, Kelly, for

1:03:06 making this happen. This has been fantastic, man. Hey, thank you so much, and maybe we do another one a little bit down the road when we've got some progress to share. I want to see how things

1:03:15 develop. We'll keep things up to date. Awesome. Thanks. Have a good one. If you liked the show, take two seconds. Leave us a reading review. Share it with all your friends, and we will catch

1:03:23 you on the next episode.