Oil and Gas Startups Podcast

0:00 All right, what's up, oil and gas startups got a long time show. I feel like it's been a long time in the making got my friend summer from the Baldwin group in here today summer. We first met

0:13 several years ago, I believe on LinkedIn. I was like, who's this lady messaging me about like, you're just like going off about insurance and oil and gas and like so passionate about it and

0:23 got me thinking about insurance all the time now. And so like you're very effective in your communication about important Interns is, and so real quick, I'm

0:34 trying to figure out how I wanted to segue into the show, but we're going to be talking about entrance and oil and gas. And first, tell me about who you are, what your background is, and then

0:46 we're going to talk about like all the doomsday shit and and entrance and oil and gas and how operators can operate in this industry and what they should be looking for on, on, you know, their lens

0:58 through entrance So first tell me who you are. Well, like every person that works in insurance, nobody wakes up and says, like, I'm going to be an insurance professional. That's it. It took a

1:09 global pandemic to like push me. You know, I don't remember any kids in elementary year book saying that they wanted to be in the entrance and industry. So you're on point there. I'll never forget

1:20 sitting down at like a Jones day discussion talking about litigation through claims and he begins the conversation with raise your hands if we actually like grew up and wanted to be here It's like,

1:30 that's right, none of us. So it's like, well, we'll save how you got here for later, but let's all address that that like life brought you here. So I actually worked in MedTech for a very long

1:41 time, spinal implant sales. I was actually the individual that would go in and stand in the operating room and show the surgeons how to use our products. We had surgical one of the first like spine

1:52 surgery robots that were created when I was with Globus We also had surgical navigation, surgical planning, softwares, really innovative like. you know, complex titanium 3D printed. Yeah. So I

2:05 all, that was when I knew I fell in love with like that consultative sales approach where you're in there, you know, they're selling a card where it's just like transactional and then there's being

2:15 value. Yeah. And I've never been able to be that type of person that can just do that cringe email or LinkedIn, LinkedIn DMs where I just word vomit you. I'd still do that sometimes.

2:27 So that career was going great and I was kind of at the point, I didn't want to see myself as like that hyper-tensive, like three times divorced, like 50 something, you know, working from 4 am.

2:39 to 12 am. Monday through Friday, like, and this is real stories, like couldn't go on vacation without a surgeon calling and saying, what do you mean you're out of town? I hate the guy that

2:50 replaces you and actually having to abandon my family and like. Yeah. So I decided it was time to move up, go to corporate. was going to go after an area VP role, then eventually hope to be the

3:02 first female VP for the Southeast. So I decided Houston because it is one of the largest spine markets in the world and you know, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. Yeah. It's

3:12 like the concrete jungle of like the spine sales. So I was like, this is it. My career. It's very interesting. I didn't know if Houston had that claim to fame of being the center of Spines. So

3:24 if I'm listening to any, all you Medtronic guys, Striker, done a great job holding your, holding your footage out here. But essentially, my start date was March 1, 2020 at a brand new territory

3:37 selling products for a surgery that was deemed elective. Yeah. So, you know, I did what everybody else does and I just sat around inside of my new apartment overlooking Midtown and I was on a paid

3:50 vacation essentially. And you know, like every, you know, true love story, I met my now husband on a dating while locked in a brand new city. And he happened to be an out-of-work petroleum

4:03 engineer that's a completions consultant. So he was obviously very busy during the pandemic. And we moved very fast, fell in love, got pregnant. He still was out of work. I was essentially just

4:18 buying time until my paid vacation was over. And I had a very good friend who had an intro tech company I was like, listen, baby on the way, both of your jobs, who knows what it's going to look

4:30 like at one point in time we were considering my husband going back to college. It was a very scary time for the people working for the independence, those consultants. Sometimes you forget like,

4:41 I mean, just how doomsday and bleak that it was for several months there. And yeah, just scary feeling. I'll never forget the day that I heard his phone will went negative like I heard like the

4:55 dings go off and I'm like something. that just happened. He just gave that money. Did you ever see the video of the meme I posted where it was the D-Day scene from Saving Private Ryan and it was

5:07 about oil going negative and just everyone in oil and gas just getting blown up. Did you see that? No, I don't think I was following you guys. It went super viral, but like I made that, like

5:18 that was probably the funniest piece of content I've ever made in my life and it came from a place of like pain because like I was like really worried about all my friends and family and what was

5:27 interesting about that was like, you can go look at like the comments and like YouTube and Twitter and everyone's like, ladies, I had to show this to my husband. You know, he got laid off and

5:34 we're sitting here laughing. It was like, is it like a dark way of bringing humor to a very tough time? So yeah, it's just like crazy how like easily we forgot, like not forgot, but like it just

5:47 kind of gets like pushed back into the memories like that time of 2020 is just like, that really happened I had a kid. I mean, that's weird. real weird stuff happened, but you know, when you're

6:00 back up against the wall, and you know, you have a baby on the way, and one skill I have in my husband doesn't is a salesperson. And, you know, kind of a sidebar, I grew up in an agricultural

6:13 family, everybody farmed, showed horses, also grew up spearfishing. So I had a lot of respect for, you know, what the oil and gas markets and their fluctuation affected my lifestyle, but I

6:26 really fell in love with offshore oil and gas operations when I started spearfishing off the drilling rigs. Yeah. And that's when I kind of became like, if people could see what I saw underneath,

6:37 and they would not associate this with this,

6:42 just environmental disaster that is no regard for the ocean life. I mean, the worst thing that ever happened to marine was the decommissioning program. Yeah, because they killed just thousands and

6:53 thousands of species that had made their homes. really elaborate systems. So there was that passion I had. Then, you know, when the love of your life and, you know, we always expect men to be

7:06 there for us, but sometimes I think women have to step up when they can. Absolutely. And that was when I realized that the insured tech product I sold could also be used independently for oil and

7:17 gas operators, for lost control inspections. So I kind of hung myself on that and I said, okay, this will be a great way for me to meet people. I'll find someone that needs a completions

7:28 consultant. Yeah. Yeah. Famous last words. Yeah. During that time. Awesome. That was the name of the startup was acquired by a private equity group. I didn't want to go over with them. I

7:41 really started to fall in love with the entire concept of like oil and gas tech industry, Bardaz. Yeah. Pablo Perez is a very good friend of mine. You know him through spearfishing. Okay. So he

7:51 gave me a sweat equity option. I'm work with was happy, I was content, and then shortly after the acquisition, my old CEO came back and was like, I need to hear, I need to champion and help

8:05 oversee the sale of our products. Please come back. So I ended up going to Insurity and for two painstaking years I tried to make very

8:20 archaic software platforms built on Adobe Cold Fusion We can always edit, but I hit this little magic button right here, there's flags, and I just told Jacob to edit it, like Jacob's like up in

8:33 the clouds somewhere, and he'll edit it. Just lost. I do it, and I just don't edit it, and I'm just like, Yeah, I forgot what I was saying, so anyways. Well then, say lobby, move forward.

8:45 So you know, I found the best way to try to make someone buy just something with a just heinous, the user interface reminded me of solitaire, reminded me of solitaire. that was pretty scary. How

8:56 am I going to get people to buy this? Then I started to learn that essentially the company was structured just to be sold, and that's all it was. So I came up with the bright idea of, Well, let's

9:10 take this. It's already being used for oil and gas inspections, and let's optimize it even further by putting best-in-class blowout preventer and well control, and everybody can upload their

9:21 certifications on. We can really optimize for the insurance carriers, because I was understanding that half the reason they were pricing out well control programs was simply the cost of the risk

9:30 versus the data. And if you understand how these carriers make money is through underwriting profit, so they were essentially just pricing the market out based on very bad data. And for every

9:43 underwriter working in the oil and gas industry, they've maybe spent two weeks, they did the rig school, a lot of UT. What do they really know to make an informed and judge, yes, we will take on

9:58 this much of the risk and at this rate. That was so interesting 'cause there's a guy on Twitter and he's been messaging me and he has an entrance brokerage firm. He's like, do you have any training

10:08 program for my people? He's like, I need them out in the field hands-on to learn as much about oil and gas as possible, and so. His people should just go out and learn for themselves like I did.

10:18 Yeah, go make a hand. Yeah, just go go out and learn Relations consultant in the. Slide into people's DMs and look like an ass like I did. Get on hinge in Houston. We've got a whole program,

10:32 contact me.

10:34 That's hilarious and so, yeah, kind of, you know, lack of domain expertise and underwriting processes and then bad data going into that. It's probably a huge problem. Mm-hmm. So that was when,

10:48 you know, Inova and I teamed up and started working on a solution together. probably one of those intelligent people I've ever met. And he saw very clearly, he's like, give this data to the Risk

11:00 Engineering Department, and now they're going to have, you make an underwriter feel more comfortable. They're going to give you a fair rate. They're going to offer bigger lines of coverage. It's

11:13 just all around the claims process. Part of the reason we're seeing premiums raise is litigation, these nuclear verdicts, where, you know, especially against oil and gas, you get one juror

11:25 that's, you know, I'm anti-oil and gas, and this family deserves, and like, they are being excoriated for the highest amount versus what a lawsuit might've been two years ago. So they actually

11:36 refer to it as social inflation in the United States. Interesting. Where our litigious nature, we ourselves are own worst enemies for our cost of insurance. And you look at the auto side of it,

11:47 and especially in the Permian Basin, I don't have to explain what that's like being out there. the horrific car accidents, it's a significant impact on the entire oil and gas industry as a whole

11:60 because they're going to charge more for those commercial fleets. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you have a commercial truck hit a passenger vehicle head-on fatality. I mean, that can potentially kill a

12:12 business just given the amount of money that that claim would be in. This is a huge discussion now in the premium among all the operators is just getting sand haulers in particular off the roads,

12:27 just getting fewer trucks on the roads because it is. I've become hyper aware of car accidents and like have this fear with like my kids and my family of just like being in the car, like driving out

12:41 to West Texas because you see so many head-on collisions. And so, yeah, the implications, you have a kind of volume of those that starts impacting entrance rates and thanks to this nature. And I

12:54 just believe that, you know, operational data, and I'm just saying this is a very broad term, you know, like whatever your, you know, the directional drilling company you're using, whatever

13:04 software provider you have, the data that you're given, especially when you're dealing with well construction, you can use that in your favor in a claims event to a speed up the claims, make sure

13:13 that you're not seen at fault. You get paid out because you deserve to get paid out on a claim. You've been paying those premiums. You've been a good customer and just because, you know, a jury

13:24 or whomever, the adjuster says, No, you're in the wrong. These, especially these independents, they can really leverage their software providers and their data providers. That's interesting,

13:35 just from an individual with health insurance. I've always hit it how insurance companies play God and it's like you pay all these premiums and then you need a medication and interest companies say

13:47 no you're not approved for that and it's kind of the same concept here in the commercial space where you pay all these premiums and then when it comes time. Um, to use your entrance, entrance

13:57 companies are always trying to weasel their way out of paying claims. And so, um, how do you, how do you mitigate that? It sounds like, you know, from your perspective is using data and things

14:06 of this nature, but how do companies like really think about able to make sure that they're first properly covered and then when an event does happen, that they're getting paid on these claims.

14:19 First, they need to recognize the importance of insurance It's just as important as the finance that you're chasing. Matter of fact, there are insurance advisors that work within these private

14:30 equity groups, venture capitalists that say, okay, this is how we want to have this risk structured, et cetera, et cetera. So if you are trying to get acquired or whatever the case may be,

14:42 let's just improve financial performance. You need to understand how important insurance is. I think everybody use insurances We have to have it. Nobody cares about it until they need it. So first,

14:54 we need to understand - It's like one of those things. It's always like by-product or on the back burner and just kind of like, you don't treat it as a primary issue. It's always secondary. And

15:03 then it's learning. I do that, so.

15:07 It's learning what you can do with your insurance. Learning, can you read that policy? And it's also it falls. That's an albatross the brokers need to wear. Like I think brokers have done a

15:17 terrible job in recent years and I'm sorry, I'm calling it out There are certain brokerages that have been around for a very long time. They've had no competition. You know, it's that boomer

15:28 mentality of like,

15:31 what do you mean software? What do you mean data? Like, it's very clear now that the implementation of data and tech within the oil and gas industry has revolutionized it. Yeah. So it's all on

15:43 the broker to make sure that whomever is handling their insurance programs isn't just more than a golf buddy they really understand that that broker. And you're goes back to you saying someone

15:53 contacted you looking for real world training. You can't get that real world training. Like I live in Midland. I, I breathe this. My husband goes to work. I hear about the problems that he has

16:03 working for these small private equity back capex mindset. I know you live in Midland. Oh, yeah. Okay. Awesome. That's country. Yeah. I love it. How I ended up from like living in Florida,

16:13 Midland. Yeah. Hell of a transition. It's hay. And that's my hometown. So I have, I have lots of love from Midland You know, one, the opportunities that's you send in Midland. I mean, this

16:25 is, this is energy capitals of the world. And so that's awesome. You just got bonus points in my book for that. Um, so you made a comment that I want to elaborate on a little bit because you

16:36 talked about the technological, um, advancements in this industry. And, um, how does that play into insurance? Um, tell me about that a little bit. Well, I know your favorite buzzwords, AI

16:49 Yeah. It's not a buzzword in the sense that I use it, but yeah, AI, machine learning. AI, we actually utilize various AI programs, but they are backed with human quality control. And the more

17:05 data you allow to be held by these underwriters, the more data sets they're able to develop. And when you have a larger set of data, then they have their own models that they map out for risk that

17:18 can help them have a more holistic view of the entire landscape. And I've seen it renewable energy companies have been wonderful whenever I collect the necessary data. And I spent a brief amount of

17:31 time on the wholesale side. And in that value chain, that's any oil and gas company, typically we're going to have to place those policies in the foreign markets that's not admitted So those

17:42 underwriters over there are so far removed, think about the guy that lives in Britain. Half of them couldn't even tell you what a palm jack is. think about conceptualizing for these people in terms

17:53 of, like, what does this mean? And I think that's where I don't think I know, for example, companies like Longpath. Longpath is actually approved by Chub as a tech data provider admitted, Chub

18:08 is a carrier. So when you deal with the insurance value chain, you have me, the broker, that represents you, the insured, then you have the wholesaler who, okay, we're going to go out there.

18:20 We're going to market this for you in the foreign markets, then you have your insurance carriers, then you have what are called reinsurers. They're the ones deepwater horizon. There were multiple

18:31 layers of insurance on that. There were reinsurers that had to ensure the insurance companies. So all of these companies can utilize this data. Visual representation of this, it seems like there's

18:44 lots of layers. Now I'm just more vomiting insurance again. No, no, no, this is actually really one. I'm dense when it comes to the insurance industry, so I appreciate you walking through the

18:55 entire value chain because I didn't even know if they're researching as reinsures or what they do, so. And they affect your insurance premiums. Okay, so one, let's frame this up in terms of an

19:04 EMP,

19:12 for example, you're going in, you have a broker and then a wholesaler and then you have all these foreign entities and it may be the guy in Britain and he doesn't even know what the fuck a pump jack

19:24 is or what Midland is. And so from an EMP perspective, how do you position yourself to essentially assist these different stakeholders in the underwriting process to where you're getting the best

19:39 rates and getting the best coverage and things of this nature, like an EMP today, How do you say, hey, I want to position ourselves to have the best strategy for insurance? What data do they need

19:50 to provide? What essentially storytelling should they be doing for the underwriting process? First of all, stop the gatekeeping. Be willing to share your data. Okay. We're here to help. We sign

20:02 NDAs. You have no problem sharing your health data with the hospitals. Give your broker, give the carrier the necessary data. Then nobody likes raw data Give good data in the sense of what your

20:15 operations look like. It's more than just giving loss runs. But when we were developing the wall control solution, it gave live updates on the health of that well. And our big plan was that one

20:27 day, we would have enough data that we could actually model and predict a blowout based upon anomalies.

20:35 Still not there yet. Unfortunately, the company shut down. Yeah, so first thing is access

20:43 to data What kind of data I quote. What kind of data do you look for in an underwriting process? Is it amount of wells operated? Is it barrels produced? Is it health safety and environmental data?

20:55 Like what type of data are we talking about? All of it, okay. Every piece of data can be utilized. Because remember, there's many different insurance policies that you carry, whether it's

21:05 workers compensation. You know, you have your large umbrella policies where the operators extra expense, the environmental, but everything you just mentioned can be used in the underwriting

21:15 process to assess your property, to assess your total insured value.

21:21 Right down to, you know, data providers like dispatch, if you're wanting to play around in the IRA, and you need to carry tax liability, solution insurance, you know, that data that's used with

21:35 those companies based upon employees can really help with that prevailing wage and apprenticeship because that's a heavy lift.

21:44 the underwriters are going to stack a big premium on it versus if a company gives a very nice package with a guarantee from their data provider that this is clean, top-notch data. So it's a very

21:57 broad answer because it's depending on the policy. Yeah, on the policy and the application. My next question for you, pushing in the hot seat is like, if I'm an EMP and I'm sitting on the side of

22:07 the table and you're an insurance broker, I'm sure a lot of these larger EMPs have in-house teams that are working on insurance, you know, just constantly. But I say I'm a small mom and pop for

22:20 like a mid-size and I don't have an internal team. And it's like, I want to work with a broker as a partner. Like, I don't want to think about insurance. Like, I'll feed you all my data and I

22:27 want you to really think about what we need for coverage. I want you to go out in the market and find it. Seems like there could be misaligned incentives there because you as a broker, you're going

22:36 to want, you know, the largest policies and things of this nature so that, you know, maybe, I don't know how y'all's, model works, but if it's commission based or whatever, how do you work

22:46 with companies in that sense to say like, Hey, we actually want to be a partner with y'all. And we have your best interest in mind and want to make sure that you have the proper amount of coverage,

22:55 because you can be overinsured as well, right? And so how do you work with companies in that sense to like really establish yourself as a partner, not just a broker, like obviously you guys have,

23:06 you know, the domain expertise and understanding of energy, but how do you position yourself? And this is more like me asking you if you're like, just how y'all operate the business and think

23:14 about that. I love this question. I like doing things that matter. There's that saying pigs get fat, hogs get slaughter. If you're overcharging or giving coverages that aren't needed that are

23:27 affecting that insured, there will be a time that you're going to have to like answer to that. And someone will find out. And that's just, that's against your fiduciary duty. And that is

23:37 something that at least I know at the Baldwin group, I myself, you know. It used to be people's lives in my hands. So I kind of find it very synonymous with oil and gas that people's lives,

23:49 livelihoods, financial success, their kids, they have a right to know it. It's very open conversation. Let's hypothetically say I was prospecting you and I would begin by saying I'm here to be

24:02 your consultant, your guide, I obviously want to lower your insurance premiums. I obviously want to make sure you have the greatest amount of coverage because yes, I might take a smaller

24:13 commission, but you know what, you're going to go tell 10 of your friends. Yeah. And I think we need to bridge that gap between insurance and oil and gas and the negativity seen between both and

24:25 develop a partnership. Yeah, you know, I was talking about like when we originally met and you and I got on a phone call and kind of opened up my eyes and to

24:38 just the, layers of industries and economies and how it all sits on top of the insurance industry and how insurance really can rug pull entire industries. And you see this happening in residential

24:51 real estate with insurance companies pulling out of California due to wildfires in Florida. I can't remember what the stout was, but I mean, the amount of uninsured homes in Florida, I mean, it's

25:01 like the majority of the homes are uninsured and then you have these massive hurricanes that could potentially come in and just wipe it out I'm like, open up my eyes to just like how much is built on

25:10 top of insurance and you'd open up my eyes to that by saying like, hey, look, like oil and gas is becoming uninsurable. And I was like, oh shit, this can take down an industry if you're not able

25:23 to convince insurance companies to underwrite these assets. And so that kind of leads into my next question is like how things have evolved over the last couple of years,

25:32 is underwriting getting harder, easier for oil and gas.

25:39 the lay of the land and turns off on our issues. These are great questions because, you know, I'm just not holding back. In 2019, there was a bill signed called the Net Zero Insurance Alliance.

25:51 Okay. We're essentially in a virtue signaling ploy, numerous brokers and carriers made a pledge that they would no longer ensure oil and gas. So now you have to think about these people that are

26:04 standing in the way of how our world runs because your insurance premiums are more expensive. If you can't ensure, let's hypothetically say you have a really bad loss, you have to pay out of pocket.

26:16 It's a trickle down effect that's going to affect you and I, the consumer. So that aged very well, obviously. There were some carriers that really stuck by their gut. Nope, this is what we

26:30 believe in. We're gonna help. My big thing is that oil and gas is what's going to guide us to the energy transition, gotta keep the lights on. to get that out of the way. There are more and more

26:42 players coming back into the market. I think there are some other companies that were very strategic and just kept their mouth quiet and just nobody bother us. There's people like God bless AIG,

26:52 they've stuck to their guns and you know, they've got just stop oil spray painting, they're London offices. Like it's scary, last time I was in London, like being from Midland and like the oil

27:02 and gas person was, I mean, I definitely looked over my shoulder leaving 'cause we were next door to that building. There's a lot of people on Twitter so they would pay me to go over to Europe and

27:13 mix up with, just stop oil. I think it'd be great contact. I will come along, I will come along because I can't begin to tell you like stuck in taxi cabs from whatever human chain they've put

27:25 across, they're just - I've got, I had this shirt made, it's a white shirt with big black letters and it just says big oil and I love that shirt. I just like wanna go over. I just wanna ask them

27:36 how did you get here today? What was your, what was your method of transportation? And you know, if they give me the, like, Oh, I thought you meant like, like metaphorically,

27:44 like how did you get to this line of thinking and not like physically, like how did you drive here? I think it might be a cult. I mean, from what I don't know, it is. No, I mean, it's a

27:52 religion. You look at it. I mean, it's got the, all the hallmark traits of religion. And that's not like, look, like, is climate change real? Yeah, absolutely is I mean, we've documented

28:07 five ice ages and geology, like climate change is a real thing. But there's a pragmatic way to think about humans' impact on that and how we move forward and how we talk about energy systems and

28:19 consumption and going and throwing soup on paintings. And like, what the fuck does that do? Like, that's so far like to the extreme. But when you get to that side of the curve, I mean, it

28:32 becomes a religion at that point So anyways, yeah, I just can't imagine like one, I already don't like your open the first place. And then the fact that you have to deal with that is just crazy.

28:41 The hypocrisy is bad, but I digress from just stop oil. There are more and more carriers working in the space. There has been a softening in the market. And I think we could continue to see rates

28:54 become more affordable if we began to work across the ship. So we're seeing the engine on the swing back. We're seeing like, I mean, we're seeing this across just kind of society right now, where

29:06 coming a little bit more pragmatic and less virtue signaling and understanding. Oh, actually, energy is really important and oil and gas powers 80 of that. And so, and also, you know, it was

29:16 really easy in 20, 2019, 2020, when oil and gas was down in the market and not producing returns, very easy to say that you're not going to support the oil and gas industry. But then when it

29:28 starts cash flowing again, it's a little bit harder to turn your back to the industry. So that's good to hear that. The market's softening and that there's a lot more availability of entrance

29:40 providers to the industry because it is important. Yeah, but we, the brokers, need to do our job educating our customers, helping them optimize their risk strategies. I think there's just been

29:51 too much complacency with like, oh, we renew every year with Glenda, you know. Yeah, so you think it does a great job It's a major

30:01 education hurdle, so teaching, is it teaching both sides of the market like oil and gas operators, and then also teaching the actual shares as well. Yes, like my first day and then whole

30:16 disclosure, I left that wholesale broker because they were so anti-oil and gas, I was like, I can't work for you Next day I walked in, we had to get our speech, who we are, where we came from,

30:19 and told them what I did now is developing the software solutions for, you know.

30:33 mitigating risk for oil and gas. And they're like, Oh, yeah. So you're the enemy. Like that was, you know, that needs to stop. I mean, I remember trying to give them my pitch and say, I

30:45 think we should go after XYZ and they don't even know like the independent operators and the Permian Basin are out there. Everybody just assumes that it's like big oil. Yeah. No, isn't that crazy?

30:55 It's like Exxon that you go find me on podcasts for over years I'm like, guys, oil and gas isn't Exxon and Chevron and BP. I mean, there are thousands of companies in this space, not only from

31:08 production to oil field services to valve manufacturers. Like, this is a very large industry and

31:16 you just be surprised at 999 of society doesn't know that. And these are the decision makers that are saying what we will ensure, how much we'll ensure what the rate, these are the people that are

31:26 dictating the market and how much capacity is available. I mean, we can get. more capital into the market with the right players. I mean, this starts with the lobbyists. I mean, I tell my

31:38 husband, like, if you ever let me, I'd love to go lobby for boiling gas, for insurance, because, like, proper education, the right people need to be recruited. And they've got to understand,

31:48 like, boiling gas is who's going to optimize, like, geothermal. And, you know, we serve far greater purposes than just, you know, drilling holes in the ground and getting the black stuff out,

32:00 you know, I think people just assume the clamps and, yeah, as far as it goes. We love drilling holes. So, um, love drilling wells. But even you look at that, it's like, you know, leading

32:10 geothermal company out there, uh, Fervo Energy, um, my friend Tim Latimer is the founder CEO. He's a completions engineer from oil and gas and BHP, flying technologies from horizontal drilling

32:21 to geothermal. So, um, oil and gas power is 80 of the world and all these going, uh, adjacent energy verticals are still dependent on. expertise and resources from oil and gas. All energy is

32:33 connected. And so that's what you can't demonize the industry. You need the industry if we're gonna continue powering society. And so it needs to be able to be insured. If you can't be insured,

32:45 there is no industry. And so really fascinating stuff. Sometimes I've been kind of like just thinking like doomsday, I'm like, happens if you can't share oil and gas assets like that It just rug

33:00 pulls, rug pulls the industry. And I think thinking about it from this approach of not putting insurance on the back burner as a secondary item, but thinking of it as a primary item. And hey,

33:13 what can we do with our data and our technology that we're deploying to get better insurance coverage at cheaper rates? I mean, why would companies not be optimizing for that? I'm sure that this is

33:24 a huge cost to them so you should be spending more time in getting the, coverage that you can at the best price. So, I should be an insurance broker to be honest. You do a great job at it. And

33:37 that's what we need is more like-minded individuals such as yourself that have that aha moment. And I hope you're listeners, these startups that are like, what can I do the next big thing? Make it

33:49 easier for these CFOs, whatever is handling the risk finances in a company, to be able to gather this data for the broker and give good holistic view of your operations so that you can go to that

34:04 underwriter and say, hey, a beautiful picture of this upstanding individual. And it goes so much further than how many employees you have, where your loss runs, but also real time. I still truly

34:17 believe that one day we will use drilling data for better well-controlled policies. Not just the hypothetical, how many barrels, yadda yadda yadda. You know, this is going to be completely out of

34:28 left field, but you're going to appreciate this. So they're building or they're proposing a battery storage facility over here in Katie. And it's one of the guys on my team, John Calphane, it's

34:40 by his house and it's 500 yards. Sorry, 500 feet away from a high school and they've got a problem because you've got John who's a really smart oil and gas engineer here asking questions because, I

34:53 mean, there's a lot of unknowns The same catches on fire and I mean, it's right by school and anyways, the way that they've, this would not fly an oil and gas, which just like shows you the

35:02 technical expertise of oil and gas versus renewables is the way that they modeled it out is like, oh, well, we've only modeled it out for if one battery pack or module catches on fire and the

35:14 radius would be this and John's like, okay, great. What about 100 catastrophic and like, oh, well, we haven't seen it jump from one to the other they should talk to me. He's like, but that

35:23 doesn't. matter. And he's like, what's the 100 catastrophic because like in oil, yes, we have to plan for that and prepare for that. Like that is like, I don't care if it hasn't happened,

35:35 which I don't believe, but what if it does happen? And you, what happens to those kids in that high school? So anyways, yeah, they should talk to you. Well, we'll take this offline. I helped.

35:47 I, the wholesaler developed a battery energy storage MGA because there was, it was impossible to get these projects insured because of the thermal runaways and the markets and experts and people far

36:01 higher intellect me all came together and we put a set of guidelines for how these projects should be built. I mean, spacing, you know, eight feet apart. Yeah. So yes. I have to digress. We'll

36:13 get you the project name out for this, but wrapping this up if we have listeners that are right. EMPs, OFS companies, or any energy companies, and they want to talk insurance and talk about

36:30 deploying new insurance programs in their company, where can they find you? Well, if I'm gonna LinkedIn, the summer shed Campbell, or you can email me summershedbaldwincom. Cool, we'll put

36:39 links in the

36:43 show notes for people to find you. If you're listening, you should reach out to Summer. She's badass, I've known her for a few years now, and enjoy getting to talk to you, and I appreciate you

36:53 taking the time to come in today and school me up on insurance. I'm pretty dense when it comes to this topic, so I have probably even more questions for you, but thanks for coming on. Thank you,

37:02 thank you. If you're listening today, you enjoy the show, make sure to share it with a friend, share it with a company that needs to get on top of their shit and insurance, and we will catch

37:11 y'all on the next episode.