Oil and Gas Startups Podcast

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0:57 What is going on, Wildcatters? Welcome back to another episode of the oiling esters podcast. Today's a little bit different, I think, from what I remember about you guys. You're not the typical

1:08 tech company, software companies. It seems like you guys are more on, I don't know if you guys are actually an EP or if you're using technology to partner with EPs, but we're gonna dive in all

1:18 that. So I'm here with Bob Barbay. If you say that, six times really fast. It's quite a mouthful with triple R energy partners Bob, welcome in. Thank you, thank you. It's been great. It's

1:30 been great meeting you. We've been having some great fun chats before we got on the microphone. So really quickly for everybody who's listening and what is triple R energy partners? It's basically

1:40 we're trying something new in the refract space and actually refracts are probably a bad word because what we're seeing now in the organic shale fields is more re-completions than refracts. And

1:52 refracts have been a funny thing. We know they increase production for a number of years, really haven't gone mainstream. And the main reason they didn't is because refracts until about 2017

2:04 involve going back into existing fractures and putting a second treatment on a well that had already been fractured without any new perforations, without any just going back into the old perforations.

2:13 You get about a 1 increase in recovery factor, the economic, but you know, your PB10 on Eagleford well, half a million or a million, you know, you got to do a lot of those to build a company.

2:22 But whereas if with mechanical isolation we found from 2017 on, you can greatly reduce the uncertainty and the results. You can predict the performance of these wells ahead of time. You can

2:32 actually do economics just off oil and place data from the well logs. My background is in petro physics. I was with Somerjay for 10 years and mostly open whole wire line and even though I'm in the

2:44 fracturing realm now, what I saw when I was a well, Somerjay and post Somerjay, I did a lot of big integrated reservoir projects where our whole job was to estimate oil and gas in place and then

2:55 what you were seeing on these wells and we saw that the same oil and gas in place in different wells had different outcomes as far as recovery factors and started looking into the completions and

3:07 realized that the completions on a lot of these, it's kind of a joke I use in my, I teach a two-day refract course and then basically on this stuff, is that people think that fracks are reserved

3:18 seeking missiles, that they just launch a down hole and they magically find the oil and gas, you know, when the first refracts came. And it'd be cool if it weren't that way. Oh yeah. Well,

3:27 actually it's kind of cool because they leave us a lot of opportunities that they thought of that way. We're thankful that they did, you know, but you know, it's basically, they don't, they find

3:35 the depletion and you have to go in and get in New Rock every time you go in there. But you make us, people have made a lot of assumptions over the years, both in the vertical world and the

3:44 horizontal world. In the vertical world, we started teaching classes in 2009 on vertical well refracts, because we were seeing all these big studies, mostly tight gas fields back then when

3:53 everything was real busy there. Where.

3:57 there was a lot of gas and a little left behind. Like a field we ended up buying had 10 gas recovery, 10 recovery factor. Yeah, it should be 70 or 60. What's the average recovery factory on oil

4:08 and average? And so you said average on gas is 60 to 70. Well, if you have 100, if you have 100 drainage of your of your reservoir, you get 15 in a solution gas drive, oil reservoir for oil. So

4:19 that's a good scenario, 15. 15 is absolute maximum. If you're producing from the entire reservoir, which is very hard to know organic shell, well, because an organic shell, well, you have

4:29 basically it takes one gas molecule, you know, basically a hundred days to go one meter in a hundred and a hundred hours in rock. So it does move, but it moves really slow. And Conico did a pilot

4:40 back in 2016 on a 2014 completion where they drilled a pressure monitoring, well, 70 feet away parallel to the original completion and had pressure gauge array in there. They were seeing seven and

4:51 a half feet of reservoir drainage for 50 foot clusters and it's no coincidences. Conoco is the top reef wrapper in the Eagleford right now because they found out in 2016 they were leaving a lot of

5:03 oil and gas behind and Prior to the second half of 2016 there's over 15, 000 active wells in the Eagleford that were completed before that not counting the thousands of active wells they're also

5:17 Conoco got on to it early and We're finding there's a lot of oil gas in place the the average P50 production from a refract actual results from the refract decline curve is around 330, 000 barrels

5:32 for a refract in the Eagleford present value 10 discount rate five or six million dollars Mm-hmm, and that's in addition to the benefit of if you have a brand new well going in next to an old well or

5:44 a child Well go in the next to a parent well if you do not refract the parent well You basically lose 60 of the reserves and that 40 on the first order offset and 20 on the second order offset which

5:55 is about a 7 million loss. So a refract in the Eagleford on a P50 well, basically has about a 13 million PV10, which is higher than a new well. And what we're seeing, the problem there is we're

6:08 seeing maybe there's over 200 refracts in the Eagleford so far, but 90 of them have been done by 10 operators. And probably 80 of them have done by the three operators. There was that huge article

6:20 that came out with Exxon, it was like Exxon Marathon, they mentioned Conoco, talking about the refracts, the new recovery rates, saying that some of the, the second time they go in, the

6:29 recovery rate's actually better than the original. First of all, they went in. And it's funny, 'cause it's like, you know, as we were talking about, I've been podcasting for seven years talking

6:39 about this, and everybody's like, you know, where's the growth gonna come from and when we're like gas, we're not discovering new, like, there's no new Permian basin. I'm talking about EOR.

6:47 And so it's funny that refracts are kind of like, becoming more, I don't know, I guess more successful is probably the term. I think 'cause it's not really new. It's been around a while. It's

6:56 more of an awareness. It's not an awareness matter. All I need to do is terrible for groupthink. I mean, everybody gets an idea about what works and what doesn't work and then all of a sudden they

7:04 start realizing, but I've had a lot of heart. I've had two articles in the oil and gas investor in the last year, two hours in oil and gas reporter in the last year, spoken at all the Doug

7:12 conferences and had tremendous response. Everybody looks at this, wow, I didn't know that. The response has been overwhelmingly positive, but then you go to them and basically say, well, why

7:22 don't you do it with some refracts? Well, we're not sure we don't have the money. We think new wells are better, but refracts are kind of neat, but we think - So what Mark and I started thinking,

7:31 we're trying to monetize our expertise. I've written 14 papers on refracts in the last 10 years and given probably 50 talks on them and various things and kind of gone through all the traps and

7:43 started out as a day. You know dumb assing and got smarter and smarter. So I'm turning to a smart ass. I'm probably

7:49 I

7:53 know at least 10 more than my clients do so you get the state at least that one step So we don't pretend to do everything, but we've got a pretty good knowledge base to where we don't think that

8:00 refracts are risky As far as the candidate selection process. It's all in place the gas in place I mean what was there to start is that the only requirement for it to be successful? Well, yes No,

8:11 it's it's not I have that to start with I mean and that's where I got into the business start with where I came in I came in providing those all in place numbers, you know from my petrophysics and

8:19 just seeing the recovery factors varied But it well spacing is important like a 660 foot spacing well in the Eagle fern with Well, whatever whatever well in place you can get about a 14 maximum

8:30 recovery factor out of that total recovery factor and that's your prior Production before the refract plus your ER and the refract so it should be around 14 percent. And like you mentioned in the

8:42 articles, we did studies in the Haynesville and in Eagleford and what we've seen across the board that the total recovery factor on a refract well which is now not necessarily going forward like the

8:52 one for instance the 330 we have another well it was over in Lee County it was in my own gas investor article that was at 370 MBL it was the ER well basically the prior to that they produced about on

9:05 whatever the total was like 450 ER but they were not going to produce 370 subsequent to the refact they'd already produced the other volume there but which it's higher than any other well out there I

9:16 mean it's the and the handle is the same way we saw the total recovery factor on the refract wells near these pads with new wells is consistently higher than the new wells total which you know and

9:28 you're not going to recover the same you are because you already covered some of that but it's pretty consistent gas condensates typically around 40 of the gas in place because you flip from oil to

9:37 gas and dry gas is about 60 what you see is the theoretical let me know theoretically actual recovery factor you'll see from a wide spacing well it's 660 spacing in the oil window of 880 and like you

9:52 kind of say window in 1320 and the gas window if you have less than that that number comes down like on the Eagleford well you've got say if you have 500 foot well spacing the maximum recovery factor

10:01 on that total is about 10 and a half percent instead of 14 like Devin CEO came out at Doug's at the Doug conference and said they're seeing about a 50 or 60 increase in their ERs over the original ERs

10:13 well that's pretty low because you know typically you should see if you go from four or five percent which is what your typical 2014 to 2013 well has to 14 you know that should be about a 3x not a one

10:26 and a half x but a lot of their wells are on 350 foot spacing or 300 foot spacing they're they're down to where your maximum recovery factor is only like 8 yeah they're going from 4 to 8 so yeah

10:37 But a lot of the cases they're doing make money anyway because they're Almost every one of the Devin and Conak are doing our parent protection, where you have a parent well that's going to be a big

10:45 pressure sink. What happens is that the child well gets fracked and the parent well is depleted zone is there.

10:52 The wells are already close enough together where you're already in the depletion pattern. You have one side of that well depleted and one side not depleted already from the beginning of the very get

11:00 go. Five seconds into that frack, it's taken off towards the parent well. It's not going on the distal side. It's the entire distal side of that child well is not being fracked It's a huge loss in

11:11 that you are. But that benefit there is about 7 million, like I said, for a P50 well. So even if you have a 330 foot spacing well, the parent well, that's just going to have a maximum, you

11:21 might get 30 or 40 increase in your UR, which is barely economic if anything. You had the parent child protection benefits huge. In fact, we did case in point as we did some expert witness works

11:34 for Tippero, the Texas independent producer, and then roll the organization. Basically, they had gone to the legislature this year, this legislative session, and proposed a severance tax

11:43 exemption or abatement for five years for refracts, unincrimental production. And for some reason, they didn't do their homework when they put their stuff together. And all they said, Well,

11:54 refracts make this much, you know, and we're gonna do this many. And they basically submitted a deal to the legislature that it's gonna cost the state 270 million. And then somehow, Ed

12:05 Longenecher, a chairman, heard about my stuff and got ahold of me and said, You know, you're looking into this parent-child stuff. And I go, Yeah, you know, we need your help. And so I starts,

12:16 Okay, let's do the numbers on it. The actual numbers, when you include, 'cause basically that number doesn't include that 7 million loss. Where you're, if you don't refract the parent well,

12:25 you're gonna lose 7 million in PD-10 on that infill child well, basically. So, but that wasn't factored in there. They didn't give any credit for that in that. Initially, they just sent them and

12:33 said, State's gonna spend, he's gonna give oil gas companies the top of high prices.

12:40 a 270 million tax break. Yeah, good luck with that, right? Even in a right-wing state, 100 right-wing state, where you have everybody in the same persuasion, it's not gonna happen. But they

12:50 completely ignore the effect on the child. Well, when you put the child well damage in there that is avoided, that even with the loss and severance tax on the parent well, which is definitely a

13:01 deficit, it's a five-year deficit, the gain from that child well production is a 350 million benefit So basically, by not passing this bill and assuming that people are gonna do more refracts if

13:12 they do it, they basically just cost the taxpayers 350, 000 for every parent child well that's out there. Instead of a 350, 000 net benefit to the state.

13:24 So I'm trying to rub my head around all of this and what it means, not just the company level, but just kind of like macro. What are the opportunities, as you kind of see it, if this is to become

13:36 more common, It's huge, it's huge. For instance, the business model we have for Triple R is basically, 'cause we're

13:44 consulting the operators and I'm teaching schools and doing projects and helping people refract those. It's a hard way to get rich, but we're seeing that there's a lot of the hesitancy and refracts

13:57 is they perceive an element of risk, it's really not there. I mean, my last four refract classes I've taught,

14:05 the number one item on those refract class requests I want to put out a questionnaire. What do you want to learn is finding the right candidates, what refract candidate selection. Everybody

14:13 perceives some risk there. I come from a Pectrophysics background. I mean, I can tell you what the old place is, I'm pretty much any well on the Eagle fruit. I mean, it's, you know, we've got

14:21 over 1, 000 wells and oil has an Eagle fruit right now for all in place, gas in place. So I mean, if you know what is there and you know the spacing, that risk is minimal. I mean, it's not zero,

14:31 but it's minimal because if you've got a high old place and you want to recover 3 of that, that's a refract. You know, even if you got close spacing, that's a refracticant, you know, normal

14:40 spacing. It's huge. So we just did a case in point. We did the last refractic school. We get the participants to put in and give us a case study. And we went and pulled a case study down for

14:49 their stuff. And they have a pad down in, I think it's LaSalle County, down that area where they've got nine wells on the pad. They're all old wells. And what I see in addition to the parent

14:60 child protection, which are like first, just gonna back up one more step. We're gonna proposing as our business model, go into an operator and say, okay, you've got an at-risk child well here

15:09 with the parent well nearby. Let's refract that as a team. We'll provide 75 of the capital. We'll provide 75 of the work and interest. Heads up, purchase. We'll participate in that well. We'll

15:19 work with your team and execute the frack. If everything goes well, if these gelling and the chemistry's good and we work good working relationship, then we want a pad of at least five or six wells.

15:29 And basically where we refract the entire pad. Because the one off refracts are hard because your parent child usually have a. proximity issues where you're really not going to maximize your rate of

15:39 return because you're already hindered by spacing on these. But these pads that have, you know, multiple wells on there, there's virtually no weight of crack one. And if you've got a single well

15:48 out in the middle of nowhere, which you think, Oh, that's great. Let's do that one. We'll wait a minute. If it's any good, you're going to put more wells around it eventually. So you're

15:54 creating the same problem over and over again if you don't. So if it's a single well, we probably don't want to do it, because it's going to have more wells later and you don't want to create

16:01 another parent child situation because you have to refrack it again. But this particular pad of nine wells, the total incremental recoverable reserves from that was about two and a half million

16:11 barrels incremental and basically a 35 to one ready to return. I mean, you know, and it's just off the charts, good. But the thing is, the probability of that oil being recovered without going

16:26 in and refracking all 90s, zero. I mean, that's never going to be recovered. That's oil that's incremental oil we can add to the production here. back then to Wall Street Journal called and a

16:37 while back when I was working with primary vision, they asked, you know, we're seeing all your articles on refracts and then we'll be, okay, let's see. What if we got serious about refracts in

16:46 the United States? What's gonna happen to our US production? So I went through five major shell basins, looked at all the wells, looked at the ducts, looked at all the stuff and basically said,

16:55 okay, if you refract 10 of the candidates, not the wells out there. Like the Eagleford for instance has over 25, 000 wells. There's only 15, 000 with white cluster spacing So, not 10 of the 25,

17:06 000, 25 of the 15, 000. If you did that in the five major basins, US national production would go up around 108 million barrels a day. Oh no, 108 BCF a day, 108 BCF in 13 million barrels a day.

17:21 13 million barrels a day. That's substantial. Oh yeah, about 10, about a 10 increase from just refracting 10. And you can do that easily. These pads, I mean, in fact, we're gonna approach

17:33 operator to farm in on this one. This is a. Perfect opportunity. Do you know how much we import daily on the? I'm not sure. I think our total production from the US. was what, 12? 11? I think

17:44 it's 11. I think we're making a lot of money. I could be wrong. I haven't looked at it for a long time. I'm fuzzy on the consultant. I'm thinking it's 18, 19, something like, I don't know what

17:51 the total consumption is. But we produce 'em right around 12 now, I think. And this would take it up to around 13. Wow. And that's from wells that are already been drilled. I mean, it's,

18:01 you're punching all the buttons here, recycling an asset that's gonna be a PA liability before too long, a lot sooner than it would be if you refract it. You're basically avoiding about half the

18:12 carbon, half the operation, there's no drilling rig involved, no drilling rig truck traffic, none of that, all that goes away. I mean, it's supply chains. I mean, everybody's complaining

18:22 about supply chain problems. You cut your supply chain needs in half. It's the lowest hanging fruit. Oh yeah. Yeah. So what's the average cost of a refract? Can you say three, four hundred

18:31 grand? Oh Well, a bull head you can probably do with it. but for about 750 to a million. Okay. And you can go for it. Yeah. We'll talk about it. A brief racks, typically around, well,

18:42 depends on the length of lateral. Most of them are around 5, 200 feet as the P50 length of those 15, 000 wells. And those are probably around four and a half million, four point two. So I'm like,

18:51 someone in that range. Okay. Plus or minus, depending on how you do them. Okay. Some of it depends on how you line it, how you isolate it and crack it. There's two ways to line it. The

18:59 original liners were put in there, were basically submitted. They take casing and run it. They take four inch flush joint casing with no collars and basically run it inside a five and a half inches

19:08 to cement that in place. There's other techniques out there that are a little bit better using expandable liners where you actually expand the pipe out. You get a bigger ID. With an expandable,

19:18 and Eagle, for instance, you can do two to three more clusters per stage, which cuts your stage count down by a third, which is a big savings. Now it costs about 200, 000 more to put it in, and

19:28 some minutes, so it's operators go, well, my pipe is only 20 bucks a foot, and you're charging 100 bucks a foot. you're also doing your fracks and three-fourths of the time, you know, it's a

19:40 whole lot better system, plus you can run bigger guns, which are better for a lot of reasons. So it's, but there's different ways to do it. But in both cases, the mechanical oscillation is

19:49 definitely what's made the difference in refracts over the last few years. My theory is, you know, people ask me all the time, but I was up on the stage at heart and they asked me an interview

19:58 there at the OLD conference, Why do you think that refracts haven't taken off? So I think that, you know, we used to

20:17 think it was the guys that, it was their wells, they didn't want to go out and admit, they screwed up the walls the first time. Yeah. But most operators do refracts or, you know, not even the

20:17 operators anymore. They mentioned a lot of them were done by other operators. But I think the joke was kind of like the, the people that were in the C-suites now, right in the checks, were the

20:22 field engineers out there doing these bullheads, seeing these operations where, you know, you'd spend a million dollars and you get two million back And then you've got these new wells over here,

20:32 which you're going to have, you know, PV 10 editions of eight, nine million, you know, where are you going to put your money? You're not going to grow a company by focusing on these refracts.

20:40 And the results were spotty. You get about 29 cluster efficiency. You can get a 100 cluster efficiency with a new well that's designed properly. We use what they call extremely limited entry with

20:49 high pressure drops across the perfs. Single clusters per, single holes per cluster, single large holes, top oriented, 25 foot spacing. You know, those are best practices And that's the best

21:00 practices we try to, with the operators we're talking to on the farm ends, we like to recommend that we like you to do these five best practices, implement these, you know, the perforating scheme,

21:10 cluster scheme, you know, the liners and all that. And we think that's going to give you your maximum rate of return at the minimum cost of maximum production. So hopefully they'll buy into that.

21:21 We don't want to operate though. So the only way you can really control that with absolute certainty is to buy the well and operate it So we're trying to work with operators right now. to where we

21:32 use their team, we use their supply chains, we use their people, you know, we go out and help, you know, advise, we're in an advisory role because we'd be a non-operating working interest owner

21:40 on the well, and that's the only uncertainty is how well that's gonna work, that's what we're gonna try to test well with, you know. So that's the model, it's you guys essentially an advisory

21:50 role hacking yourself into some non-operating interests.

21:56 Obviously given that the refract works and it's successful,

22:01 so yeah, what went through that, if you guys have, if you guys have any walls up to this point, where are you at in the life cycle? Well, we've had before. Half a dozen operators so far bring

22:09 prospects to us. They have a couple of them we're looking for to buy a prospect and they wanna see if refracts had added value and if it did, then they would allow us to commit and farm in on it.

22:19 So you go to the, they approach you or vice versa, you go through and identify are these the actual, are these prospects good? is there actually an opportunity here? And then what's the next

22:31 stage? We assess the oil in place. We pull all the well logs in from the area, analyze ones that haven't been analyzed, get a good oil in place kind of map or distribution and look at the

22:40 prospects of spacing and then basically do an economic evaluation of the wells and our target that we wanna take to the investors that we've been talking to, we've been talking about a half a dozen

22:47 different groups that are saying, yeah, it looks good. When you get a farm and come talk to us and we can sit down and get serious. Right now we're not gonna fund you a frack Co or a drill Co,

22:57 which would be ridiculous to ask for that I mean, it's not gonna have a track record in that space. But, you know, so once we have some solid prospects or solid farming agreements, then the

23:07 people we've been talking to say, we're gonna give it a real hard look. Will they give us some money? Who knows? I mean, we hope so. It's a relatively low risk investment. We've got a kind of a

23:17 leadership position in the knowledge space. We teach the top refract course in the industry of how much more refract papers than anybody else. I've been more talks and refracting. So I mean, at

23:26 least we, you know, We have a perception of credibility anyway.

23:32 So you go to the operators. You have the prospect. You said that they're not going to be the ones who are fronting the money. Where do you get the money out for the refracts? We've talked to

23:39 several private capital, various groups, some private equity people, some private capital people, some family offices. We've talked to a number of people. And they're all saying the same thing.

23:49 Yeah, this is great. We like what you're doing. But we're not going to write you a check until you bring us a prospect Bring us

23:56 some actual gear, how to turn this off.

24:09 I'm assuming not up working interest in that as well. We're proposing a model again, it's all up to the money, it's

24:16 the gold rule, it's gonna make the rule. So we're proposing to the people that have the gold that basically, that they fund us on a 220 basis like the NGP time, where you try to get 2 of your

24:27 tranche overhead for annual basis, just to cover your expenses and get in that store. And then basically no interest in the wells at all until payout, and then the back end for 20 like that. And

24:39 the operators we've been proposing just kind of, you know, 30, 000 foot deal as if we want about one and a half payout of the investment to us, the investors, ours would kick in after one, but

24:49 another half would go in and then give them the option to buy back the remaining production on a PV 10 or PV 12 basis So basically the,. That way we're out of the deal. Some of the operators we

24:59 talk to say, well, we really don't want people hanging on forever. We don't want little bits of interest here and there. When we sell the property or when we do this, we don't want all that mess.

25:08 So, OK, fine. Just write us a check for the PB10 or PB12. That way, you got an early exit, which makes the capital providers happy. Everybody wants to know your exit plan. Well, we got a

25:16 rolling exit plan. We're going to exit on each operator. And the payout on these, based on the P50, which is about a three to one, the P50 is about a three to one return, there's less than two

25:27 years. So it's kind of an ideal situation for a capital provider because it's relatively low risk. The only risk that's really involved is manageable, and that's actually getting the liner in.

25:38 Because of the pre-refract evaluation, we know how to calculate all in place, you can do it in my sleep right now. You can calculate all in place and gas in place all day along with no problems.

25:49 That number's not that hard. So you know the resources there, you know the relationship between the recovery factors and spacing So you've got that nailed down. The candidate selection is very low

25:59 risk, almost zero. The refrag itself, once the liner is in the ground,

26:07 other than some minor modifications and how we want to perforate and things like that, is exactly the same as what's going on probably 1, 000 times as we speak right now around the United States.

26:16 Every organic shell well now is using procedures we're going to be using. I mean, is there risk in that? Yeah, there's always a risk. Something's going to blow up or whatever. But it's small How

26:26 many well, how many

26:28 wells are lost in new wells? I mean, probably a fraction of a percent at the most. It's not zero. But so your candidate selection phase is zero risk pretty much. Essentially, on a relative scale

26:41 of the risk you have, the postliner is zero and in productions, whatever. But the only uncertainty is in the middle. And that's where you have to come in with some diagnostics. You want to make

26:51 sure you evaluate the well bore, you know, make sure there's no problems where they may be running.

26:58 a dark vision tool to see what do you got, any evaluity or casing parts, or what Devon does on air wells is basically, they go in to the point where they're gonna set the liner and do the

27:05 mechanical liner doesn't run all the way to the surface, it's only, it's from a liner hanger on down. They go down before they set the liner and set a bridge blood right above where the liner

27:14 hanger is gonna go and then do a pressure test. 'Cause when your worst nightmare is to put all this jewelry in the hole and be on stage two or three and then, or even stage 10 or 20 and you blow out

27:27 your surface case and you just add bad cement or something up a hole. So you minimize that risk with tests, but we're looking to probably spend 50, 000, 60, 000 per well before you even get the

27:38 liner in there, just to try and get it wind out. So that goes on to the ultimate cost here. Have you guys taken the approach or thought about doing the approach of going to the NGPs, the

27:47 carneilions, the end caps and saying, Hey, you've got a portfolio company

27:52 of 20, 20 MPs, I'm sure some of them have some prospects. Maybe we pilot with one of them, you guys fund it, since it's, I mean, has that worked or? Well, we actually have pulled the trigger

28:03 on it. Well, we did, we talked to Cornelian and we're dealing with Rich Mar now, but we're one of our people we're talking to. I mean, we don't have any deals with them, we're just talking to

28:11 them. And we talked to Juniper and they're tied into, we'll do Baytech, or Baytech Snow. Yeah, the Pempaginyou, Ranger. They actually told us, hey, we like this and we're gonna talk to these

28:22 guys if you want You know, so I'm actually working on some stuff for them right now to try and do it for me. I just think that'd be an interesting angle of like, you know, you can kill two birds

28:30 with one stone that actually sends them in. Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, there's just, it's a huge ecosystem of somebody to talk to. But you guys don't wanna be the operator, like you guys

28:39 don't wanna go out and just use this proprietary technology and your expertise and

28:45 stuff for yourself.

28:47 I mean, it's not that hard. I mean, we really conceptually don't want to build a large organization and have a lot of people, but you can get around that by hiring contract people. So that's not

28:56 a huge issue. You can have contract operators. So it's not our first choice. We want to try this avenue first, but - Where's the hesitancy come from? Well, it's just getting the heart, the

29:07 agreements with the operators. That's the only thing, getting that down. And we haven't had any ones yet that we liked. So that's the problem with the problem is us. The ones that we're bringing

29:17 us now, they haven't passed much, or they've been two to ones or they're too close together. Is it economically, could you actually build an entire business on going out and buying these prospects,

29:26 doing it yourself, not having to worry about it with the other operators? Totally, totally, yeah. That's one of the advantages of these old place map, that we're building an old place map for

29:35 the entire Eagleford. And so we can go into areas that don't have any, have very little production or poor production, or some of these early wells in 2012 and 13, 11, they had 80, 90 foot

29:45 cluster spacings. and they had horrible cluster efficiency. So like 100-foot cluster spacing with 50 cluster efficiency, which is the average cluster efficiency from all these diagnostics people

29:54 are showing, it's 200-foot cluster spacing. So you've got 200-foot take points in a reservoir that drains 10 feet. So it's gigantic. I mean, it's huge potential out there for this. So I think

30:06 it's unlimited. But we'd like to use the operators' teams. 'Cause the thing about it is the money's in the pads. The one-off is okay, but you really get a lot more velocity, and it's really doing

30:18 a zipper on four or five wells, is no more complicated than doing a single well. It takes more time. You've got a few more coordination issues, but if you can get one liner down, you get five

30:26 liners down. I mean, it's not like you're limited by the number of liners that you can put in the ground. For you to spend the time doing it, just do pads. Yeah, I mean, you can accelerate.

30:35 Like for instance, this one we looked at from one of the people's in my class, oh, last month, the two and a half million dollar deal, we could probably finish that whole project in the month,

30:44 month and a half, you know, with new liners and everything. and then you're 24 months later, you're out of it. So it's got a potential to pay out a lot better than new wells with a lot less

30:54 hassle. Do you know what I mean? It's a lot fewer moving parts. I feel like I just got a master class in refracting. It's just so much, so much to learn. And there's gonna be a lot of like frack

31:04 nerds out there. You're gonna listen to this and absolutely eat it up. Bob, this has been, this has been absolutely awesome. Where can people go if, you know, let's just look at operators in

31:12 particular. If they hear this and they're interested and they would love to just chat with you, what's the best way to get a holder? Sure, we've got, just go to our website and we got refrackscom.

31:22 So it's gonna be never, easy to remember. Amazing that we got that. I have no idea why it was still available. All right, refrackscom. And then are you on LinkedIn or anything? Yeah, we're on

31:32 LinkedIn as well, yeah. Perfect, so you can reach out to them there. We'll put some links in the show notes. We're gonna do somebody again around refracking 'cause I just feel like you're

31:40 absolutely just so knowledgeable about all of this. This has been a pleasure for me to just learn. So, Bob, it's great having you. I'm so glad we made this happen. And if you guys liked the

31:51 episode, take two seconds of reading review. Share this with all your fracking nerd friends. Go check these guys out and we'll catch you in the next episode.